Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes • Hacker News Board

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#381

Post by mcv » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 12:46 PM UTC

CharlesW wrote: post #178

spqr0a1 wrote: post #156

In general I’m bullish on biotech but best case for tissue culture meat still leaves me sceptical. Most of the hype focuses around beef substitutes, beef cattle is about as inefficient as animal agriculture gets at ~3% efficient on an energy basis of edible parts. Dairy jerseys and laying hens are both ~12%, with meat chickens ~15%. The best replicating eukaryotic cell culture I know are certain yeast at 50%. So a be…

> Even there an argument could be made that humane husbandry is positive-utility rather than the neutral of lab-grown, while also coming out ahead environmentally. Can that be true? Animals from U.S. factory farms generate >1 million tons of manure per day (open-air lagoons of animal waste are a special treat) and are responsible for an impressive percentage of methane emissions.

> Can that be true? Animals from U.S. factory farms generate >1 million tons of manure per day

Factory farms probably don't count as "humane husbandry".

I've heard of desertifying areas in the Sahel being made greener again by having goats graze there periodically.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#382

Post by Aromasin » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 1:07 PM UTC

jlarocco wrote: post #196

arawde wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm on the opposite side of this. I've eaten meat for the first 23 years of my life, but my current partner is vegan. A large part of our relationship has been discovering that vegetables are actually good to eat when they're not an afterthought to a meal. I go out of my way to try the meat substitutes now, because I'm holding out that one of them will actually be good enough for me to show my carnivore friends. For…

As a long time vegetarian and off-and-on vegan, I suspect you'll be less disappointed if you look for and cook meals that just don't include meat, rather than substituting it for something else. There are tons of them, and many are incredibly tasty. Indian restaurants, for example, often have entire sections of the menu that are vegan or vegetarian without substituting in fake meat. It's a little more work initially,…

I found transitioning to vegan to be almost impossible when I stuck to my old meal routine. All my meals had the same fundamental, irreplaceable component; meat. Chicken and fries. Steak and veg. Slow-cooked beef stew. Bangers and Mash. Fish and chips. Burgers. Pizza. Wings. Veg was a side thought. I tried at first to replace all this with plant 'replacements' but kept failing miserably.

After some research on what vegans actually eat, not what I thought they ate, I swapped to a diet of porridge, curries, chillis, stir-frys, stews, pastas, soups, and salads, which were meals I loved and could do easy, mostly in one pot. At first I could have the meat I craved, but over time I could do a straight 1:1 swap of meat for peas, beans, seeds, nuts and lentils, without tarnishing the quality of the meal.

People fail at the first hurdle when they try to replace a bacon sandwich, pizza, hamburger or steak with something that is a fundamentally different food. Replacing bacon with a sliced mushroom is like trying to replace a water pipe with some electrical wire. They're both great, but for different things. Likewise, replacing some berries in a bowl of cereal with pork cutlets or a fried egg would likely make you a guest on Strange Eaters. It works both ways.

If I've discovered anything during my lifestyle change, it's that eating is 95% habitual, and any argument I had against vegans in hindsight was because I didn't want to have to break out of my habit. I now have no interest in eating meat again, because I'm in a new habit and to have a steak would be breaking out of that again.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#383

Post by cableshaft » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 1:10 PM UTC

hprotagonist wrote: post #13

subpixel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think where seitan excels is where the meat it is substituting is heavily seasoned and in smaller pieces. I’d never eat a seitan log as a Thanksgiving turkey substitute, but ironically one of the things you discover when you begin to substitute meat is that a lot of “classics” are flavorless. Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh can be bland and rubbery, which is why they are fried or smothered in sauces as a rule.…

>Chicken, turkey and most fish flesh are bland and rubbery, which is why they are fried or smothered in sauces as a rule. Come visit. I'll bake you a chicken, and i only need about 6 ingredients to change your mind. (salt, pepper, chicken, butter, thyme, dijon mustard optional). Turkey has never been a favorite of mine, but I had an exceptionally good one that was salted and peppered and then cooked in a big green eg…

Smoked salmon is awesome. I get that whenever I get sashimi. Might have to get some today now.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#384

Post by cableshaft » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

I was a vegetarian for three years a long time ago. I eventually gave it up, but I do go through phases where I try to limit how much meat I eat still. One of the best lingering benefits of it is I gained more of a taste for vegetables and seem to enjoy vegetables more than a lot of people around me, now.

But one thing I noticed when I was vegetarian, is how some people almost seemed personally offended by my choices, and there were people who would literally wave meat in my face and 'mmmm, you want this don't you!'

There are people out there who really don't give a damn about the lives of animals and are proud of eating meat, makes them feel like a proper man/human whatever. It's going to take some serious reprogramming (or flapping meat substitutes in their faces) for these people to even consider giving them a try (That was another thing I most often heard from people "Oh I could NEVER stop eating meat." I bet you could if you tried a little. It's not THAT hard.)

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#385

Post by lustysocietyorg » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 1:20 PM UTC

wavegeek wrote: post #362

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nutrition science in 2019 is clear and has been clear for decades. A high carb low fat low protein whole food plant based diet with (cheap) vitamin supplements and maybe linseed oil: - is the healthiest diet. - is the cheapest diet. - is the most efficient and environment friendly diet. - is the most ethical diet with regard to immoral animal suffering caused by humans.

Citation required. I was on such a diet for many years and eventually gave up on it because I could not make it work in a healthy way. Why? Too many deficiencies. Example: Linseed oil /= DHA/EPA. Many or most people cannot make long chain Omega 3 fats in the quantity needed from vegetable "Omega 3" fats. Too many anti-nutrients in plants. Get on youtube and search "I used to be a vegan" for numerous cases like mine,…

Citations: https://lustysociety.org/diet.html

Besides: Vegans In The US Can Now Get Cheaper Life Insurance Thanks To Their Diet : https://www.plantbasednews.org/post/vegans-plantbased-cheape...

DHA/EPA are not essential fatty acids but conditionally essential fatty acids.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_fatty_acid

> Get on youtube and search "I used to be a vegan" for numerous cases like mine, health irreparably damaged.

What did a vegan diet do to you ? Lack of vitamin B12 or other vitamins ? I advice to use vitamin supplements no matter the diet.

I agree that youtube offers much true and useful knowledge.

Unfortunately youtube offers also much false and harmful knowledge.

Some better youtube channels about nutrition:

Mic the Vegan : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGJq0eQZoFSwgcqgxIE9MHw/vid...

Nutritionfacts.org : https://www.youtube.com/user/NutritionFactsOrg/videos

PLANT BASED NEWS : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJRjK20fHylJyf-HiBtqI2w/vid...

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#386

Post by lustysocietyorg » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 1:24 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #372

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The nutrition science in 2019 is clear and has been clear for decades. A high carb low fat low protein whole food plant based diet with (cheap) vitamin supplements and maybe linseed oil: - is the healthiest diet. - is the cheapest diet. - is the most efficient and environment friendly diet. - is the most ethical diet with regard to immoral animal suffering caused by humans.

> A high carb low fat low protein whole food plant based diet with (cheap) vitamin supplements and maybe linseed oil: > - is the healthiest diet. I would love to see the argument for this. I accept that it's the most cheap, efficient and possibly ethical (although there are a lot of ways you can go about producing this food, not all of it ethical), but healthiest? High carbs makes you fat. You need proteins and some…

> High carbs makes you fat.

An excess of energy makes you fat. Besides, fat is much easier to store as body fat for the body than carbs or protein.

> You need proteins and some fat. Having your diet be all carbs sounds like a bad idea.

I wrote whole food plant based diet.

I wrote high carb, low fat, low protein.

NOT: max carb, min fat, min protein.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#387

Post by pmart123 » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 1:42 PM UTC

I don’t see why this is that thought provoking of a prediction. We have already seen the shift from dairy based milk to almond, soy, oat milk, etc. We probably could look at milk choice in coffee in urban areas vs nationwide, etc. and get an idea of the potential percentage of the population that chooses a dairy substitute. Similarly, my guess the market adoption for dairy free cheese substitutes is quiet low. With meat, I highly doubt it would be broadly abandoned across all types of meat. For instance, maybe the impossible burger overtakes the burger, but people still like steak and there is no substitute.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#388

Post by mcv » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 2:26 PM UTC

lustysocietyorg wrote: post #386

mcv wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A high carb low fat low protein whole food plant based diet with (cheap) vitamin supplements and maybe linseed oil: > - is the healthiest diet. I would love to see the argument for this. I accept that it's the most cheap, efficient and possibly ethical (although there are a lot of ways you can go about producing this food, not all of it ethical), but healthiest? High carbs makes you fat. You need proteins and some…

> High carbs makes you fat. An excess of energy makes you fat. Besides, fat is much easier to store as body fat for the body than carbs or protein. > You need proteins and some fat. Having your diet be all carbs sounds like a bad idea. I wrote whole food plant based diet. I wrote high carb, low fat, low protein. NOT: max carb, min fat, min protein.

I'm no dietician, but here's a couple of facts/myths/urban legends I've heard about nutrition. No idea how true they are, but they sound plausible to me:

* carbs digest into glucose

* too much glucose in your blood triggers insulin production which turns glucose into fat

* a glucose spike can trigger an insulin spike which leads to a glucose dip an hour or two after lunch

* eating fat triggers the feeling of being full, reducing your desire for more food

I have no idea how true these all are, but my impression is that there's at least some evidence supporting these. And if you add them all up, it sounds to me like you get fatter from eating carbs, because that can lead to a glucose spike -> insulin spike -> glucose dip which makes you want more sugar to get your glucose back up. Whereas food with more fat may make you feel full and stop craving more food.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#389

Post by Jill_the_Pill » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 2:30 PM UTC

lucidguppy wrote: post #260

Jill_the_Pill wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprised you lump those together. Seitan is the best, but I've never found a tempeh recipe we can tolerate.

I'd rather eat anything other than tempeh - it turns my stomach.

My kids call it "cat food granola bars."

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#390

Post by leroy_masochist » Mon, Feb 25, 2019, 2:32 PM UTC

Meekro wrote: post #253

leroy_masochist wrote: post #89

I live on and help operate a small family farm (230 head of grass fed cattle) and I don't think that meat substitutes will hurt our sales or margins, unless and until their quality results in a broad shift in societal attitudes that leads to meat itself becoming illegal. I do absolutely think that it will reduce the demand for industrially farmed, feedlot-fed, commodity-priced meat, and this is a good thing.

Where should I be shopping, to ensure that my meat comes from family farms like yours?

There's no substitute for actually visiting a farm and seeing how they do things.

A lot of the 'grass-fed' beef out there is grain-fed in a pasture.