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Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

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Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#341

Post by nearbuy »

ngngngng wrote: post #282
xnxn wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think your premise is correct. The data I can find[1][2] suggests that vegetarians and vegans are principally concerned with animal ethics. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257659/ [2] https://www.abc.net.au/cm/lb/10062622/data/veganuary-infogra...

Hunting is most likely the best option from an animal ethics standpoint. Although it doesn't scale well. But make that point to a vegan and suddenly they're vegan primarily for environmental concerns.

Why is hunting better than being vegan?

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#342

Post by selimthegrim »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #16

FWIW I think he's predicting something which is already beginning to happen. Carl's Jr. (Hardees to you midwestern/east coast folks) recently added Beyond Meat patties to their menu ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-beyond-meat-carl-s-jr-idU... ). For a small price extra, you can get a not-farmed-meat burger and they're promoting it pretty heavily. I dropped in a while back, was surprised to see it on the menu, th…

Sonic has mushrooms mixed in with the patties of certain burgers it sells.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#343

Post by manmal »

nabla9 wrote: post #205
jameslk wrote: post #131

Since we're making predictions here, I predict that shortly after we adopt meat substitutes, we'll start to question what's inside them. Then the conversation will change from meat substitutes being good and healthy to something akin to the GMO debate about meat substitutes not being natural. And just like GMOs, whether it's actually bad for you or not won't matter. This debate will be a proxy war between Big Meat an…

Most of the meat in the market is already something else than what people think meat is. Meatballs may have more than half chicken skin. Burgers contain 25% filler. Pink slime (= lean finely textured beef) is a highly processed meat by-product. In the US its processed with ammonia but that's not allowed in EU.

Eating only lean muscle meat is not a good idea anyway. Not sure the products you mentioned are healthy, but mixing things up a bit with skin, organs etc might be beneficial. Don’t hate the meat byproducts per se.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#344

Post by pell »

mrob wrote: post #303
llukas wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please describe sustainable humane animal husbandry at this scale.

We should develop an extremely potent and long lasting opioid that's destroyed by cooking (maybe some peptide could work). It needs to be powerful enough that we can keep the animals constantly high for their entire lives. Alternatively, figure out a practical "wireheading" brain implant with the same effect. Animals do not have any ambitions or desire for self-actualization that would be thwarted by this, and we alr…

Or we could create a meat tax, stop subsidies, create task forces who actually care about animal welfare and do randomized tests regularly so animal abuse can be limited. It would also help, if governments would actively work on making vegetarian/vegan options more lucrative. All of this is a process that could work out well in 15-20 years.

We can, of course, also put animals on drugs so they're high while they live their miserable lives, sure.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#345

Post by _nalply »

intended wrote: post #340
jameslk wrote: post #131

Since we're making predictions here, I predict that shortly after we adopt meat substitutes, we'll start to question what's inside them. Then the conversation will change from meat substitutes being good and healthy to something akin to the GMO debate about meat substitutes not being natural. And just like GMOs, whether it's actually bad for you or not won't matter. This debate will be a proxy war between Big Meat an…

Also, 10 years later, there will be fads and forwards which talk about eating "Natural" protein, not this fake stuff. 15 years later, there will be science talking about how micro nutrients are missing from meat substitutes and how a natural, healthy and balanced diet is necessary for human beings.

And there will be a movement "Grow your own meat" which proposes to keep bunnies and slaughter them yourself. Members will be proud to be not grossed out of the gore. Groups will discuss the best ways to feed and slaugther bunnies. They will have Thanksgiving bunnies.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#346

Post by pell »

Buldak wrote: post #312
everdev wrote: post #291

I'm a vegetarian, but I think he's underestimating the cultural significance of meat for a lot of people. As a male, I've seen a fusion between meat and perceived masculinity at many BBQs. It's on par with owning a gun or driving a big truck, etc. It's more than a food, it's often used as bonding ritual for men. Sure, pockets of New England, California and other liberal towns might widely adopt meat substitutes but I…

It's funny how different aspects of one's identity hang together. You'd think that diet should have little to do with someone's views on politics or gender, but when I learned that Jordan Peterson adhered to an all beef diet, I thought "Yeah, sounds about right."

It's very difficult having a conversation with his fans, I learned.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#347

Post by opportune »

thom wrote: post #210
david-gpu wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can make a brother with nothing but meat and salt and it will be flavorful. That's a big part of why making meat substitutes is so hard.

This is what lifelong meat eaters experience, but I just can't comprehend. There is no meat that on its own is particularly tasty to me. Chicken, at its absolute best, tastes like a disappointing roast chestnut. What's worse is meat doesn't really marinade as well as everyone makes out, so often I'll be enjoying a dish but I keep chewing and realise I just like the sauce and then that fades and - yuck - you're left w…

Chicken is about the worst meat to eat on its own, especially if you are baking boneless skinless chicken breasts. Dark chicken meat has actual flavor, so thighs and drumsticks are probably your best bet.

If you want good meat with no extra flavoring I recommend good steak (like the $60+ steak you can get at a nice steakhouse). Pulled pork is also good, though it's usually somewhat flavored, doesn't necessarily need to be. Lamb prepared gyro style is pretty good. Pretty much any meat will taste better grilled than baked in an oven too.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#348

Post by lustysocietyorg »

intended wrote: post #340
jameslk wrote: post #131

Since we're making predictions here, I predict that shortly after we adopt meat substitutes, we'll start to question what's inside them. Then the conversation will change from meat substitutes being good and healthy to something akin to the GMO debate about meat substitutes not being natural. And just like GMOs, whether it's actually bad for you or not won't matter. This debate will be a proxy war between Big Meat an…

Also, 10 years later, there will be fads and forwards which talk about eating "Natural" protein, not this fake stuff. 15 years later, there will be science talking about how micro nutrients are missing from meat substitutes and how a natural, healthy and balanced diet is necessary for human beings.

The nutrition science in 2019 is clear and has been clear for decades.

A high carb low fat low protein whole food plant based diet with (cheap) vitamin supplements and maybe linseed oil:

- is the healthiest diet.

- is the cheapest diet.

- is the most efficient and environment friendly diet.

- is the most ethical diet with regard to immoral animal suffering caused by humans.

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#349

Post by brtknr »

I like meat subs and they are increasingly becoming satisfactory substitutes for people who enjoy the act of eating meat minus the ethical and environmental burden. It is possible to mostly get essential nutrients from pulses, vegetables and grains, so for me, the meat subs are effectively just for fun additions and I do not expect them to be substitute what one might expect to get from eating meat which is often something that people misunderstand about a plant based diet. If you are serious about reducing your meat consumption and able to keep an open mind about plant based meats, I suggest working your way through many alternatives available in the market, it can actually be quite a lot of fun to sample what different people and companies have come up with!

Re: Paul Graham on the Transition to Meat Substitutes

#350

Post by jillesvangurp »

I like good meat but I agree that most people will eventually switch over for the simple reason that the vast majority of meat on the market, isn't that great and matching that with lab grown stuff is already possible and will eventually become vastly cheaper and more scalable. There's the industrially produced, water and hormone injected chicken, beef from calves that were grown in a box in months, and all the other low quality stuff we substitute for not being able to afford the premium stuff. That's why a lot of meat comes in sausage or minced form.

A good steak might be hard to match for a while but replacing a typical Mac Donald's burger with something that is actually nicer shouldn't be that hard.

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