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EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

reuters.com

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Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#71

Post by duxup »

billfruit wrote: post #56
duxup wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like headline bickering is endless. But I also think there is a lot of difference between even draconian copyright laws.... and China, Russia, Venezuela.... Same goes for laws enacted by democratic governments who have free press, independent courts, etc. Your comparisons seem hardly 1:1.

I think his point is not about comparison, but of the media putting a 'spin' on the way a news item is presented to make it more in line with their own entrenched positions, and the ethicality of their doing it. Even considering the huge uproar about fake news, etc that the media is crying hoarse over, they seem reluctant to reform their own practices like reductive and sensationalist head line writing, and change to…

I'm not sure there is automatically "spin", because of the difference.

My point being those government actions are very much in different contexts and might deserve different descriptions.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#72

Post by TeMPOraL »

wbxrs wrote: post #34
flexie wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't frame this as a free speech issue. Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. Freedom of speech in Europe is not just an EU question, but also - and mainly - up to constitutions and legislation of the member states. So of course it varies. But there is less surveillance in Europe on what citizens say online, European media is less centralized than American, there are more par…

>Don't frame this as a free speech issue. Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. Yeah, no. This (blasphemy laws) would be unthinkable in the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

This and the "insult the president" sound both like cases of the offender being an asshole.

I mean, there is a difference between criticizing an idea - or a person - and being purposefully insulting about it. Surely there is a way to draw a line in between that preserves free and civilized discourse.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#73

Post by craigsmansion »

aikah wrote: post #43
flexie wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't frame this as a free speech issue. Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. Freedom of speech in Europe is not just an EU question, but also - and mainly - up to constitutions and legislation of the member states. So of course it varies. But there is less surveillance in Europe on what citizens say online, European media is less centralized than American, there are more par…

> Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more It is absolutely not. That's a preposterous assumption. If it was the case then no European state could send people to prison or fine them for having an opinion, yet look at France, where insulting the president is a crime and denying "official" history has landed people in jail (I don't condone either of these, it's just about principle)…

It absolutely is, depending on your p.o.v.

I know the U.S. is big on their "freedom of speech" since it's one of the few things all citizens agree on, an All American Shibboleth, so to speak, but National Security trumps everything.

There are plenty of things you can say at the border that will get you on the next plane back home.

There may or may not be people being held in captivity without access to a lawyer for their speech. We don't know because the proceedings are secret.

Someone who practiced his freedom of speech is currently in hiding in liberty-loving Russia of all places. That's about treason, you might say, but with enough restrictions any speech can be classified as treason.

Speech in the U.S. only seems to be free when it doesn't matter. If it matters there are a lot of restrictions and there can be dire consequences.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#74

Post by wbxrs »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #72
wbxrs wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Don't frame this as a free speech issue. Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. Yeah, no. This (blasphemy laws) would be unthinkable in the US: https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/its-not-fr...

This and the "insult the president" sound both like cases of the offender being an asshole. I mean, there is a difference between criticizing an idea - or a person - and being purposefully insulting about it. Surely there is a way to draw a line in between that preserves free and civilized discourse.

It is not the job of the government to preserve "civilised discourse". It is a government, not the moderator of an Internet forum.

I must be able to say whatever I want, and you must be able to ignore me or openly disagree.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#75

Post by xorand »

adrianN wrote: post #53
Dahoon wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it does not. This is the GDPR discussion all over again. "This will kill the internet" and "All sites will be subscription only" etc. I'm not for the proposed law but it does not does not block fair use.

The law doesn't block fair use, but the only way for content platforms to be compliant is rampant overfiltering which will kill fair use.

>rampant overfiltering which will kill fair use

True! However, according to the draft of the Article 13, this may happen in the case of providers "of an information society service whose main or one of the main purposes is to store and give the public access to a large amount of copyright protected works or other protected subject-matter uploaded by its users which it organises and promotes for profit-making purposes." [1]

This is not an argument in favor of upload filters. Maybe we should push for legislation about the obligation to make any upload filter completely transparent (program source).

[1] definition from the top of the document https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Art_13_unoff...

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#76

Post by zanny »

aikah wrote: post #43
flexie wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't frame this as a free speech issue. Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more. Freedom of speech in Europe is not just an EU question, but also - and mainly - up to constitutions and legislation of the member states. So of course it varies. But there is less surveillance in Europe on what citizens say online, European media is less centralized than American, there are more par…

> Freedom of speech is as protected in the EU as it is in the US, possibly more It is absolutely not. That's a preposterous assumption. If it was the case then no European state could send people to prison or fine them for having an opinion, yet look at France, where insulting the president is a crime and denying "official" history has landed people in jail (I don't condone either of these, it's just about principle)…

Its not exactly the same but its a felony to threaten the president in the US. US freedom of speech is not close to absolute with all kinds of exceptions made over the years, from yelling fire in a theater to verbal harassment.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#77

Post by apples_oranges »

oytis wrote: post #42
josteink wrote: post #8

Let’s be optimistic. This will severely impact social media. It will be censored like never before, and attacking opponents by “reporting” their posts will be more effective than ever. Trolls will have a EU-sanctioned field-day. And what real users are going to bother staying on a platform like that? Maybe this will revitalize hosting of personal websites where there’s no “platform” to censor your free speech?

Not gonna happen in Germany. In Germany if you own a website, you're obliged to tell the world your home address. (That is, by the way, why everyone knows where Lennart Poettering lives).

Why do you mention him specifically? Did something happen because his address was known?

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#78

Post by AsyncAwait »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #54
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #23

Does anyone have a link to the actual law? All I can find are news stories with too little information.

Nobody complaining about the law has actually read the law . Julia Reda doesn't want you to read the law she's opposed to, she wants you to be opposed to it based on the "link tax" and "upload filter" nicknames that have been coined for it.

> Julia Reda doesn't want you to read the law she's opposed to, she wants you to be opposed to it

I've skimmed the relevant passages and it didn't seem to me like she's claiming anything that's not true. You can play the word game of if that particular phrase was there or not, but the intent is clear for anyone, except perhaps those with vested interest in having this passed.

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#79

Post by anticensor »

Brotkrumen wrote: post #55
microcolonel wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ...makes it horribly expensive to compete with Google and Facebook And despite this, YouTube thinks that even their incredibly sophisticated rights management system is too lenient to comply with Article 13 and not be subject to immense damages.

ContentID won't be enough, but google has the finances to get a blanked license with most distributors. Anything not from those distributors will be blocked. That's a feature, not a bug. Perfectly as intended because now Google has to pay for a license from Springer.

ContentID+Copyscape+MOSS

Re: EU Countries Back Copyright Reforms Aimed at Google, Facebook

#80

Post by zanny »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #24
izacus wrote: post #4

Huh? If anything, the reform codifies systems like Content ID and makes it horribly expensive to compete with Google and Facebook. And all that to cater to US copyright industry - a fine example of EU shooting itself in the foot.

All we need now is an independent content id system that companies might use to check content against. Doing nothing will leave this to the wrong parties to implement and turn into a control point. IMHO a simple open platform could allow content creators to register their content. Anyone could then choose to check content id against such a platform. In case of conflicts, that platform would be the place to resolve th…

How about instead of spending billions of man hours and dollars on an antiquated conception like intellectual property when the fundamental assumptions of its premise have changed (primarily, that information was not functionally free to store and transmit instantly to anyone, anywhere) you say "hey, maybe it doesn't make sense to create artificial state run monopolies for an imaginary incentives structure we have no evidence actually works and could try something else, including nothing, and see how that goes".
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