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Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

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Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#71

Post by linsistine »

ceejayoz wrote: post #53
linsistine wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Name me one thing which has no beginning.

We see all sorts of weirdness with time, like delayed choice experiments: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-eraser-de... The entire concept of time starts to break down in spots, like within a black hole: https://phys.org/news/2015-09-law-implies-thermodynamic-blac... It also breaks down when you start talking about pre-Big Bang cosmology. It's not clear there is such a thing as a "beginning" outside…

What does this even mean?

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#72

Post by ceejayoz »

linsistine wrote: post #66
ceejayoz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is "we're not sure, but we'd love to find out". Giving up and replacing "we'd love to find out" with "well, it's just unexplainable magic!" is not a satisfying option to me.

So if you're answer is, "I don't know", how can you say that a belief in a Creator is wrong? If you truly don't know?

I technically don't know if there's an invisible unicorn living in a cave on the Moon.

I can state with reasonable certainty that there isn't.

I'm perfectly willing to be convinced by compelling evidence to the contrary, but "it's in the Bible" or "everything needs a beginning EXCEPT THIS ONE THING THAT MAKES MY ARGUMENT WORK" isn't that evidence.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#73

Post by linsistine »

notus wrote: post #61
linsistine wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It turtles down until there is a beginning, a source. That source, or beginning, is what religions people refer to as God.

but they can't be the source because their design implies a designer

So you've accepted the logic that all designs have a designer. But now you attempt to debunk the logic by saying, "Surely the Creator has a creator too, right?".

But we've already established that the idea that all designs have a designer, all creations have a creator, is more logical than for something to come into existence, from nothing, with no creator, for no reason, and out of randomness.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#74

Post by linsistine »

ykevinator wrote: post #65
hawkesnest wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how "hardcore" I am. My lack of belief is due to lack of evidence. The quality of my life is pretty good (perhaps due to my WEIRDness) and, yes, that would probably prevent me from looking to something "else". That said, if the evidence were significantly more convincing, I'd change in a heartbeat.

Exactly. Atheism is nothing more then accepting an evidence based belief system.

What is your evidence?

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#75

Post by ceejayoz »

linsistine wrote: post #71
ceejayoz wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We see all sorts of weirdness with time, like delayed choice experiments: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-eraser-de... The entire concept of time starts to break down in spots, like within a black hole: https://phys.org/news/2015-09-law-implies-thermodynamic-blac... It also breaks down when you start talking about pre-Big Bang cosmology. It's not clear there is such a thing as a "beginning" outside…

What does this even mean?

"Time is a weird concept even in our universe at times. It breaks down entirely outside of the known universe."

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#76

Post by notus »

linsistine wrote: post #73
notus wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but they can't be the source because their design implies a designer

So you've accepted the logic that all designs have a designer. But now you attempt to debunk the logic by saying, "Surely the Creator has a creator too, right?". But we've already established that the idea that all designs have a designer, all creations have a creator, is more logical than for something to come into existence, from nothing, with no creator, for no reason, and out of randomness.

I'm only accepting the logic for the sake of the argument, I don't actually accept it. I'm just pointing out that accepting the logic is dissonant because at some point you have to deny the logic.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#77

Post by dfxm12 »

tcrow wrote: post #57
dfxm12 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some religious codes don't have an obligation to do good works or think philosophically about themselves or navigating the world. Simply believing - sola fide - defines religiousness for some religious codes, particularly among Protestant religions, which some 46.5% of Americans belong to [0]. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_the_United_St...

I understand this idea, but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue or what it REALLY MEANS to say you are religious. Can I really make a valid claim to be religious If my actions are not in accordance with the principals of my religion? Sure I can say I "believe", but then If I truly did, why would I not act it out in my life? I don't think the two are really separate concepts at the most fundamental analysi…

Based on your line of thought here, I'm not sure you understand this idea as well as you claim to. You appear to be passionate about this though. I suggest you do some research into the key differences between Catholicism & Orthodox churches and many protestant churches like the Lutheran & Reformed Churches when it comes to sola fidelis vs "faith and works".

I'll say this again: for many protestants (and thus many Americans), simply believing defines being religious.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#78

Post by lucozade »

linsistine wrote: post #52
lucozade wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's perfectly reasonable to look at the universe and believe that it came from something. Where there's little to no evidence is that it was designed. What for, us? Hardly, if so that's some record for redundant packaging. Some mysterious purpose that we can't fathom? Yeah, I've worked on software like that too. Colour me unimpressed. But it's beautiful? Well some of it maybe. A fairly large part of it is literally…

Purpose is subjective. What I'm saying is, all of "this" must of came from something. And that "something" is what people refer to as God, the Higher Power, the "Ultimate".

> What I'm saying is, all of "this" must have come from something

Fair enough

> And that "something" is what people refer to as God

Expects it's not, is it? If people stopped at "the thing that kicked off the universe", we'd be laughing. But they don't.

You wouldn't need prayer, or moral guidance, or Pope's or whatever. Utterly pointless, the launch was eons ago.

You cannot reasonably get from "the universe was created" to anything close to most monotheistic deities. There have been dualist religions that had a stab but they were generally slaughtered if they got too popular.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#79

Post by linsistine »

ceejayoz wrote: post #72
linsistine wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you're answer is, "I don't know", how can you say that a belief in a Creator is wrong? If you truly don't know?

I technically don't know if there's an invisible unicorn living in a cave on the Moon. I can state with reasonable certainty that there isn't. I'm perfectly willing to be convinced by compelling evidence to the contrary, but "it's in the Bible" or "everything needs a beginning EXCEPT THIS ONE THING THAT MAKES MY ARGUMENT WORK" isn't that evidence.

It's reasonable to think that the Universe came into existence without some sort of creator, that it wasn't intelligently designed in some capacity, and that it came from nothing out of randomness and for no reason?

That you came from your father's penis as a drop of fluid, to be formed into some living thing, and ultimately be given birth from your mother's vagina into this world for no reason, out of randomness, and with no sort of intelligent force behind all of this?

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