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Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

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Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, if a complex system like a bee implied the existence of a creator, that begs the question of what created that creator, since it must also be a complex system. It's all turtles down there. Second, we know that complex systems like bees can and do arise without a creator by means of evolution through natural selection. Third, even if you somehow still want to believe in a creator, what can we infer about it? Th…

It turtles down until there is a beginning, a source. That source, or beginning, is what religions people refer to as God.

but they can't be the source because their design implies a designer

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I can't fathom or understand is how someone can look at the universe and say that there was no Creator or Architect of some kind? If I showed you an incredibly complex software program and told you there was no developer or designer behind it, and that it came into existence randomly and for no reason, you would look at me like I'm crazy. Or for the artistically inclined, if I showed you the Sistine Chapel and t…

I always defer to Stephen Fry's answer[0], when approached on the aspect of the existence of a god. [0] - https://youtu.be/I_ciu7_cOhg

If you're curious - in the theology world, Stephen's answer is a reiteration (and a good one) of the Problem of Evil: If Good is good and all powerful, then why is there evil in the world?

The standard answer is that God may have other values than what we think of as Good. For example everything was 'good' then perhaps there wouldn't be a need for forgiveness, generosity or free will

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#63

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

The issue is how can religious people "choose" to believe something. Atheism is not a movement, it's a surrender to logic and reason. What's baffling is, how can people suppress reason because it feels good?

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner. Would you describe a dolphin as a complex structure? It wasn't designed, it evolved through natural selection. I suggest reading a short book titled "Why evolution is true", or "The blind watchmaker".

Belief in a higher power does not counteract the belief, or proof, of the idea of evolution and natural selection. Surely someone can design something to self-heal, self-correct, or evolve/adapt to it's surroundings right? Wouldn't a good designer/architect do that?

True but if you think the big bang and god and evolution are all true, then surely you must reject the Bible, right?

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#65

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

I don't know how "hardcore" I am. My lack of belief is due to lack of evidence. The quality of my life is pretty good (perhaps due to my WEIRDness) and, yes, that would probably prevent me from looking to something "else". That said, if the evidence were significantly more convincing, I'd change in a heartbeat.

Exactly. Atheism is nothing more then accepting an evidence based belief system.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've replied to your other comment, name me one thing which has no beginning. So the timeline of the universe has no beginning? It just "is" and "was" for no reason, no design, no creator, for an infinite period of time?

The answer is "we're not sure, but we'd love to find out". Giving up and replacing "we'd love to find out" with "well, it's just unexplainable magic!" is not a satisfying option to me.

So if you're answer is, "I don't know", how can you say that a belief in a Creator is wrong? If you truly don't know?

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#67

While I am an atheist myself, I grew up going to a Unitarian church. They held food drives and other charity events, and was a social staple of our community. Religion can give a person's life structure, give them a social support network they might not have otherwise. I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with i…

Yeah, that's a nice theory. Reality in my personal experience is, religion(s) divide people like nothing else in human history. It gives tons of people who live in sort of constant denial/ignorance of reality (I'll get to that) a sense of smugness. (Practically) everybody believes their faith is the right one, and everybody else has it wrong. 'They' are outsiders, and maybe if we are kind we accept them nevertheless, and maybe we won't.

With Christianity as a religion that only 1/3 of the world say/pretend to believe in, but mostly don't act like they actually do, it just doesn't make any sense at all. So 2/3 of this world, and most of those 120 billions of humans which ever lived will burn in hell eternally? A bit unfair to those billions who were born long before some delusional crazy person created yet another sect of Judaism, or even invention of Judaism by inspiring with some other monotheistic religion (maybe Zoroastrianism).

Some people told me that faith begins when rationality ends - that might be my problem/situation. Every single thing, event, experience, anything I ever learned is rational, causal - that's how reality works. That's not how religion works. I won't stop my brain, not for you, anybody else, nor religion.

That's a problem so many with religions - they became these entrenched corporations of our minds, say like Oracle since we're on HN. They create strict hierarchy, set of rules that come out of nowhere, get highly political internally and externally.

if people would stick to the original faith only, kept it as something personal, optional and not so divisive as in current form, maybe religions wouldn't be losing so many people just in few generations.

Its perfectly fine and appropriate to ask people to be good humans. But you definitely don't need any religion for that. And in my personal opinion, no fear of almighty god and eternal punishment ever made an evil person into a good one.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how "hardcore" I am. My lack of belief is due to lack of evidence. The quality of my life is pretty good (perhaps due to my WEIRDness) and, yes, that would probably prevent me from looking to something "else". That said, if the evidence were significantly more convincing, I'd change in a heartbeat.

Lack of evidence and willingness to change sounds more like "agnostic" than atheist to me. I'm not trying to split hairs - I am much more OK with declaring myself to be agnostic than athiest (I'm an American and southern to boot, Grandfather was a preacher). The best way I've heard it put is that Athiests believe there is no God. Agnostics believe that it is unknown and unknowable whether there is a god.

But defaulting to god being possible is itself religious. There is equal proof of the existence of 2 gods as there is one. And equal proof of 100. Throw god away and start with a clean slate, ask what happened and you will come up with big bang and evolution. No modern adult would start with a god. The fact that its an option is a legacy and one that I think pollutes agnostics' thinking.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how "hardcore" I am. My lack of belief is due to lack of evidence. The quality of my life is pretty good (perhaps due to my WEIRDness) and, yes, that would probably prevent me from looking to something "else". That said, if the evidence were significantly more convincing, I'd change in a heartbeat.

Lack of evidence and willingness to change sounds more like "agnostic" than atheist to me. I'm not trying to split hairs - I am much more OK with declaring myself to be agnostic than athiest (I'm an American and southern to boot, Grandfather was a preacher). The best way I've heard it put is that Athiests believe there is no God. Agnostics believe that it is unknown and unknowable whether there is a god.

The counterpoint to this is Russell's teapot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Yes, technically, I'm agnostic about a teapot orbiting Mars, or an invisible unicorn living on the Moon... but it's a reasonable statement to just say flatly "there's no such thing" until someone presents some pretty solid evidence that's incorrect.

I've also heard folks make a distinction between "weak" and "strong" atheism; weak being "I don't believe there's a God, but I could be convinced with good enough evidence" and strong being "nothing would convince me of a God".

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#70

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

The issue is how can religious people "choose" to believe something. Atheism is not a movement, it's a surrender to logic and reason. What's baffling is, how can people suppress reason because it feels good?

>What's baffling is, how can people suppress reason because it feels good?

Humans are not primarily logical beings. Humans are primarily emotional beings for whom logic often serves as a basis to rationalize their emotions.

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