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Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

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Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#31

Post by trey-jones »

hawkesnest wrote: post #3
Rainymood wrote: post #2

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

I don't know how "hardcore" I am. My lack of belief is due to lack of evidence. The quality of my life is pretty good (perhaps due to my WEIRDness) and, yes, that would probably prevent me from looking to something "else". That said, if the evidence were significantly more convincing, I'd change in a heartbeat.

Lack of evidence and willingness to change sounds more like "agnostic" than atheist to me. I'm not trying to split hairs - I am much more OK with declaring myself to be agnostic than athiest (I'm an American and southern to boot, Grandfather was a preacher).

The best way I've heard it put is that Athiests believe there is no God. Agnostics believe that it is unknown and unknowable whether there is a god.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#32

Post by daveFNbuck »

linsistine wrote: post #4
Rainymood wrote: post #2

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

What I can't fathom or understand is how someone can look at the universe and say that there was no Creator or Architect of some kind? If I showed you an incredibly complex software program and told you there was no developer or designer behind it, and that it came into existence randomly and for no reason, you would look at me like I'm crazy. Or for the artistically inclined, if I showed you the Sistine Chapel and t…

By this logic, the creator requires a creator, and that creator requires a creator and so on. Unless you believe in this infinite chain of creators, you already understand how someone can believe in a complex thing coming into existence without a creator.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#33

Post by AndrewDucker »

It's very common, when one lives in a theocracy, to pretend to be religious. That way you don't get shunned by your fellow citizens, and have to deal with all sorts of awkward situations.

The actual levels of religosity can drop a _lot_ before it becomes clear that darn-near everyone is just pretending.

In 2011, membership the Church of Scotland dropped to the point where it was less popular than "No Religion". This got a lot of publicity - and meant that over the next two years the membership nearly _halved_, from 32% to 18%. Because once there's no social requirement to say "Oh yes, I believe in God", all of the people who hadn't been going to church anyway stop saying it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Scotland#Position_in...

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#34

Post by haolez »

Passthepeas wrote: post #29

While I am an atheist myself, I grew up going to a Unitarian church. They held food drives and other charity events, and was a social staple of our community. Religion can give a person's life structure, give them a social support network they might not have otherwise. I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with i…

Is a drunk man happier than others?

That’s a simple, but deep question. I wonder if this topic is covered by mainstream philosophy.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#35

Post by linsistine »

tw04 wrote: post #10
linsistine wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Evidence in what regard? Evidence to validate the proclaimed truth behind religion?

Evidence to prove the Bible isn't an entirely fictional work with very little basis in fact. Portions of which can be used to assist in developing a solid moral compass, but historically has been used to justify atrocities rather than elevate mankind.

Well it's hard to convince anyone of the validity of religion because it is faith-based. I am a religious person because it gives me peace and strength, and in an odd way makes sense to ME. My personal experiences validate it, but of course this is not universal and hard to communicate to someone.

But, the belief in a Higher Power, a God, a Creator of some sort, is rooted in using logic. That is something that I don't understand how someone can deny.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#36

Post by linsistine »

ceejayoz wrote: post #30
linsistine wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even bringing feelings or faith into this discussion though. This is pure logic my friend. It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner. That something as intricate and complex as the universe just came to be randomly, for no reason, and with no architect of some sort.

Where this line of thinking falls apart is realizing you must, due to the same logic, explain the architect's coming into existence.

All creation has an ultimate source though, does it not? A point of singularity.

This source, or point of singularity, is what religious people refer to as 'God'.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#37

Post by tcrow »

What does it mean to be religious? Is it simply belief or belief and action? I would argue that you aren't really religious unless you actually live by the code of the religion. That would mean a very strict sense of how to navigate the world and your interactions with others and yourself. How many people do this? In my experience - not many, and I don't think this is unique to Americans. Perhaps I'm way off but it seems like the world in the majority is often only pretending to be religious.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#38

Post by ceejayoz »

linsistine wrote: post #36
ceejayoz wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where this line of thinking falls apart is realizing you must, due to the same logic, explain the architect's coming into existence.

All creation has an ultimate source though, does it not? A point of singularity. This source, or point of singularity, is what religious people refer to as 'God'.

> All creation has an ultimate source though, does it not? A point of singularity.

This is an unsupported assertion. The current answer to "what came before the Big Bang" is "we're not sure, and we're not sure that's even the right terminology".

If everything needs a creator, that "singularity" has to have one, and its creator, and its creator, and so on and so forth for infinity.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#39

Post by david-gpu »

linsistine wrote: post #16
lotsofpulp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. But software and Sistine chapel having creators doesn’t provide any proof regarding origins of anything else. Some people choose to assume things that make themselves feel better, such as after lives and gods. Some people assume the opposite. Some people don’t assume anything at all. Either way, it’s nobody else’s business. Belief = assumption + ego, so I find assumption to be a bet…

I'm not even bringing feelings or faith into this discussion though. This is pure logic my friend. It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner. That something as intricate and complex as the universe just came to be randomly, for no reason, and with no architect of some sort.

> It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner.

Would you describe a dolphin as a complex structure? It wasn't designed, it evolved through natural selection.

I suggest reading a short book titled "Why evolution is true", or "The blind watchmaker".

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#40

Post by daveFNbuck »

Passthepeas wrote: post #29

While I am an atheist myself, I grew up going to a Unitarian church. They held food drives and other charity events, and was a social staple of our community. Religion can give a person's life structure, give them a social support network they might not have otherwise. I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with i…

> I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with it.

Are you not concerned that these people might one day come to the conclusion that their religion isn't real and be left with no reason to get out of bed?

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