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Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

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Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#51

Post by sumnole »

ceejayoz wrote: post #30
linsistine wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even bringing feelings or faith into this discussion though. This is pure logic my friend. It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner. That something as intricate and complex as the universe just came to be randomly, for no reason, and with no architect of some sort.

Where this line of thinking falls apart is realizing you must, due to the same logic, explain the architect's coming into existence.

When asked what triggered the big bang, an honest answer is "I don't know, have a guess at it".

It's true that all roads from there will eventually lead to abandoning the logic and essentially saying "just because".

imho the leap of faith in assuming the architect(s) came into existence by divinity (just because) is more satisfying than the one in assuming there is none.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#52

Post by linsistine »

lucozade wrote: post #41
linsistine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I can't fathom or understand is how someone can look at the universe and say that there was no Creator or Architect of some kind? If I showed you an incredibly complex software program and told you there was no developer or designer behind it, and that it came into existence randomly and for no reason, you would look at me like I'm crazy. Or for the artistically inclined, if I showed you the Sistine Chapel and t…

It's perfectly reasonable to look at the universe and believe that it came from something. Where there's little to no evidence is that it was designed. What for, us? Hardly, if so that's some record for redundant packaging. Some mysterious purpose that we can't fathom? Yeah, I've worked on software like that too. Colour me unimpressed. But it's beautiful? Well some of it maybe. A fairly large part of it is literally…

Purpose is subjective.

What I'm saying is, all of "this" must of came from something. And that "something" is what people refer to as God, the Higher Power, the "Ultimate".

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#53

Post by ceejayoz »

linsistine wrote: post #47
ceejayoz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All creation has an ultimate source though, does it not? A point of singularity. This is an unsupported assertion. The current answer to "what came before the Big Bang" is "we're not sure, and we're not sure that's even the right terminology". If everything needs a creator, that "singularity" has to have one, and its creator, and its creator, and so on and so forth for infinity.

Name me one thing which has no beginning.

We see all sorts of weirdness with time, like delayed choice experiments: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/quantum-eraser-de...

The entire concept of time starts to break down in spots, like within a black hole: https://phys.org/news/2015-09-law-implies-thermodynamic-blac...

It also breaks down when you start talking about pre-Big Bang cosmology. It's not clear there is such a thing as a "beginning" outside of the universe.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#54

Post by notus »

Because American communities were built around religion with the church being the social congregation area. The average sentiment is that people don't really want to go to church but do so to maintain certain social relationships and keep up appearances. It is far more prevalent in smaller communities.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#55

Post by daveFNbuck »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #42
daveFNbuck wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with it. Are you not concerned that these people might one day come to the conclusion that their religion isn't real and be left with no reason to get out of bed?

That can happen to anybody.

Most people who lose their faith don't also lose all their motivation.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#56

Post by ceejayoz »

linsistine wrote: post #48
ceejayoz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Things just don't appear for no reason and with no creator. This logic must logically apply to said creator.

As I've replied to your other comment, name me one thing which has no beginning. So the timeline of the universe has no beginning? It just "is" and "was" for no reason, no design, no creator, for an infinite period of time?

The answer is "we're not sure, but we'd love to find out".

Giving up and replacing "we'd love to find out" with "well, it's just unexplainable magic!" is not a satisfying option to me.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#57

Post by tcrow »

dfxm12 wrote: post #49
tcrow wrote: post #37

What does it mean to be religious? Is it simply belief or belief and action? I would argue that you aren't really religious unless you actually live by the code of the religion. That would mean a very strict sense of how to navigate the world and your interactions with others and yourself. How many people do this? In my experience - not many, and I don't think this is unique to Americans. Perhaps I'm way off but it s…

Some religious codes don't have an obligation to do good works or think philosophically about themselves or navigating the world. Simply believing - sola fide - defines religiousness for some religious codes, particularly among Protestant religions, which some 46.5% of Americans belong to [0]. 0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_the_United_St...

I understand this idea, but it doesn't really address the fundamental issue or what it REALLY MEANS to say you are religious. Can I really make a valid claim to be religious If my actions are not in accordance with the principals of my religion? Sure I can say I "believe", but then If I truly did, why would I not act it out in my life? I don't think the two are really separate concepts at the most fundamental analysis of it. Say one thing but do another just means you are a hypocrite.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#58

Post by daveFNbuck »

linsistine wrote: post #44
daveFNbuck wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By this logic, the creator requires a creator, and that creator requires a creator and so on. Unless you believe in this infinite chain of creators, you already understand how someone can believe in a complex thing coming into existence without a creator.

Until the creator reaches to a point of singularity, an ultimate source, which religious people refer to as God. Isn't there a beginning to EVERYTHING?

It sounds like you're describing big bang cosmology rather than a personal god.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#60

Post by ykevinator »

haolez wrote: post #34
Passthepeas wrote: post #29

While I am an atheist myself, I grew up going to a Unitarian church. They held food drives and other charity events, and was a social staple of our community. Religion can give a person's life structure, give them a social support network they might not have otherwise. I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with i…

Is a drunk man happier than others? That’s a simple, but deep question. I wonder if this topic is covered by mainstream philosophy.

Yes. A drunk man is happier. This is a trick religious people try to use by conflating something's truth with something's value.
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