Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#41

Post by lucozade » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

linsistine wrote: post #4

Rainymood wrote: post #2

For those hardcore atheists that just can't fathom why someone would believe in Christianity/religion in general, let me ask you are you WEIRD (Western, Educated, Industrialised, Rich, and Democratic)? If the answer is yes, I can highly recommend the book The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. It didn't really change my opinion on religion but it did give me a different view and perspective into why some others do bel…

What I can't fathom or understand is how someone can look at the universe and say that there was no Creator or Architect of some kind? If I showed you an incredibly complex software program and told you there was no developer or designer behind it, and that it came into existence randomly and for no reason, you would look at me like I'm crazy. Or for the artistically inclined, if I showed you the Sistine Chapel and t…

It's perfectly reasonable to look at the universe and believe that it came from something.

Where there's little to no evidence is that it was designed. What for, us? Hardly, if so that's some record for redundant packaging.

Some mysterious purpose that we can't fathom? Yeah, I've worked on software like that too. Colour me unimpressed.

But it's beautiful? Well some of it maybe. A fairly large part of it is literally as dull as physically possible.

And there's myriad examples of things that are beautiful to us that weren't designed to be. They need to have been created, sure, but not designed.

So yeah, the universe was created. But there's no basis for believing that it was created by anything intelligent, nor that it was designed. And there's plenty of evidence that, once created, it just shuffled along on its own. No need for a cosmic repairman to still be around.

Oh, and thank you for not using the eyeball as an example of divine perfection. That one used to wind my (blind in one eye, short sighted in the other) grandfather up no end.

Unlike some here, I have no issue if you want to believe something different from me. But this is HN and that's not a strong argument.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#42

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:47 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #40

Passthepeas wrote: post #29

While I am an atheist myself, I grew up going to a Unitarian church. They held food drives and other charity events, and was a social staple of our community. Religion can give a person's life structure, give them a social support network they might not have otherwise. I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with i…

> I have met religious people that quite simply could not get out of bed without it, and as long as they don't become too dogmatic I see no issue with it. Are you not concerned that these people might one day come to the conclusion that their religion isn't real and be left with no reason to get out of bed?

That can happen to anybody.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#43

Post by JoeAltmaier » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

linsistine wrote: post #16

lotsofpulp wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. But software and Sistine chapel having creators doesn’t provide any proof regarding origins of anything else. Some people choose to assume things that make themselves feel better, such as after lives and gods. Some people assume the opposite. Some people don’t assume anything at all. Either way, it’s nobody else’s business. Belief = assumption + ego, so I find assumption to be a bet…

I'm not even bringing feelings or faith into this discussion though. This is pure logic my friend. It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner. That something as intricate and complex as the universe just came to be randomly, for no reason, and with no architect of some sort.

Nonsense. Put a bunch of magnets in a box, all spread out. Close it, add energy (shake the box). Open the box - the magnets are neatly organized into stacks. Order from nothing! Its perfectly natural and expected. No architect required.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#44

Post by linsistine » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

daveFNbuck wrote: post #32

linsistine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I can't fathom or understand is how someone can look at the universe and say that there was no Creator or Architect of some kind? If I showed you an incredibly complex software program and told you there was no developer or designer behind it, and that it came into existence randomly and for no reason, you would look at me like I'm crazy. Or for the artistically inclined, if I showed you the Sistine Chapel and t…

By this logic, the creator requires a creator, and that creator requires a creator and so on. Unless you believe in this infinite chain of creators, you already understand how someone can believe in a complex thing coming into existence without a creator.

Until the creator reaches to a point of singularity, an ultimate source, which religious people refer to as God.

Isn't there a beginning to EVERYTHING?

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#45

Post by lucozade » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:50 PM UTC

linsistine wrote: post #5

hawkesnest wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how "hardcore" I am. My lack of belief is due to lack of evidence. The quality of my life is pretty good (perhaps due to my WEIRDness) and, yes, that would probably prevent me from looking to something "else". That said, if the evidence were significantly more convincing, I'd change in a heartbeat.

Evidence in what regard? Evidence to validate the proclaimed truth behind religion?

Probably for the existence of God.

God's existence, if He were to have a reasonable fraction of the attributes ascribed to him, would be trivially provable to the most hardened atheist.

The fact that that hasn't happened, with no clear reason why not, is quite tricky for a lot of sceptics to get passed.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#46

Post by linsistine » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:52 PM UTC

david-gpu wrote: post #39

linsistine wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even bringing feelings or faith into this discussion though. This is pure logic my friend. It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner. That something as intricate and complex as the universe just came to be randomly, for no reason, and with no architect of some sort.

> It is not rational to "believe" that an object, a thing, a complex structure, can come into existence without being intelligently designed in some manner. Would you describe a dolphin as a complex structure? It wasn't designed, it evolved through natural selection. I suggest reading a short book titled "Why evolution is true", or "The blind watchmaker".

Belief in a higher power does not counteract the belief, or proof, of the idea of evolution and natural selection.

Surely someone can design something to self-heal, self-correct, or evolve/adapt to it's surroundings right? Wouldn't a good designer/architect do that?

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#47

Post by linsistine » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:55 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #38

linsistine wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All creation has an ultimate source though, does it not? A point of singularity. This source, or point of singularity, is what religious people refer to as 'God'.

> All creation has an ultimate source though, does it not? A point of singularity. This is an unsupported assertion. The current answer to "what came before the Big Bang" is "we're not sure, and we're not sure that's even the right terminology". If everything needs a creator, that "singularity" has to have one, and its creator, and its creator, and so on and so forth for infinity.

Name me one thing which has no beginning.

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#48

Post by linsistine » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #25

linsistine wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it not proof? It's using the most fundamental of logic. We're talking elementary logic here. I see a thing, this thing must of came from something. Things just don't appear for no reason and with no creator. A pen, a banana, a baby, a piece of code, all of these things came from something. And all of these things compared to the universe are incredibly simple. But how come you believe the universe came into ex…

> Things just don't appear for no reason and with no creator. This logic must logically apply to said creator.

As I've replied to your other comment, name me one thing which has no beginning.

So the timeline of the universe has no beginning? It just "is" and "was" for no reason, no design, no creator, for an infinite period of time?

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#49

Post by dfxm12 » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:57 PM UTC

tcrow wrote: post #37

What does it mean to be religious? Is it simply belief or belief and action? I would argue that you aren't really religious unless you actually live by the code of the religion. That would mean a very strict sense of how to navigate the world and your interactions with others and yourself. How many people do this? In my experience - not many, and I don't think this is unique to Americans. Perhaps I'm way off but it s…

Some religious codes don't have an obligation to do good works or think philosophically about themselves or navigating the world. Simply believing - sola fide - defines religiousness for some religious codes, particularly among Protestant religions, which some 46.5% of Americans belong to [0].

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestantism_in_the_United_St...

Re: Why do Americans claim to be more religious than they are?

#50

Post by linsistine » Fri, Jan 25, 2019, 3:58 PM UTC

david-gpu wrote: post #20

linsistine wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I can't fathom or understand is how someone can look at the universe and say that there was no Creator or Architect of some kind? If I showed you an incredibly complex software program and told you there was no developer or designer behind it, and that it came into existence randomly and for no reason, you would look at me like I'm crazy. Or for the artistically inclined, if I showed you the Sistine Chapel and t…

First, if a complex system like a bee implied the existence of a creator, that begs the question of what created that creator, since it must also be a complex system. It's all turtles down there. Second, we know that complex systems like bees can and do arise without a creator by means of evolution through natural selection. Third, even if you somehow still want to believe in a creator, what can we infer about it? Th…

It turtles down until there is a beginning, a source.

That source, or beginning, is what religions people refer to as God.