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Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

oregonlive.com

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Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#161

Post by AnimalMuppet »

AmericanChopper wrote: post #155
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so. But one truck accident kills far fewer people than one airline accident. So each individual pilot has considerably more responsibility than each individual truck driver.

Perhaps, but you could go back and forth on that all day. Look at the list of incidents involving at least 50 deaths on wikipedia[0], comparing aviation and road, there a difference, but it’s not an enormous difference. My point is that I don’t think there’s a strong correlation between risk to public safety, and remuneration, nor between training and remuneration. There’ll likely be some correlation for both, but yo…

Training? How long does it take to become a (professional) pilot? I bet it's longer than to get your chauffeur's license... but not so much longer to account for the pay difference.

It occurs to me, though, that vehicle cost might be a factor. How much does a new semi cost? $100,000, maybe? How about a new 737? $80,000,000. Does that influence pay?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#162

Post by scarejunba »

MetalGuru wrote: post #23

“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.” Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done…

Yeah, right. Best engineering practices would be from the same guys who somehow find big O notation incomprehensible or hit impossible to use. It’s not that any of this is necessary or good to know but credential-seeking would be the number one place for mediocrity.

It would be a great negative signal. I love it.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#163

Post by oh_sigh »

olefoo wrote: post #140
EGreg wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want more people to use violence? Mob rule is better?

His premise is also wrong; in that the state does not have a monopoly on violence and indeed delegates it to private citizens specifically in several contexts. Consider any state with "stand your ground" or "castle doctrine" embedded in their statutes. In most of the US this translates into you can use violence if you are white and fearful and plausibly justified. Not so much if you are not.

Why race bait? Are you quoting any compiled statistics, or are you just going by the gut on this one?

I'm wondering why white privilege on violence didn't work for Michael Drejka, who shot a black man who aggressively pushed him to the ground and was subsequently charged with manslaughter, but Devin Gibbs(a black man) was okayed to shoot his gun into a McDonalds on self defense grounds after a white man basically taunted him from 20+ feet away? Was this just a fluke in the system that just protects white people who go around killing but not others? Or maybe your thesis is wrong.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#164

Post by not_kurt_godel »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #107
gambiting wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fraud is lying for financial gain. Lying for its own sake is not. You can say and pretend you are a lawyer as much as you like, but only as long as you don't do it to decieve someone for money.

I read become a lawyer in 8 hours the howto book, am i still committing fraud?

Yes.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#165

Post by stan_rogers »

paulie_a wrote: post #156
Gibbon1 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Difference between a lawyer and a realtor is a lawyer has to get a law degree and pass the bar exam and then really doesn't owe anyone shit. Realtor's are a cross between a MLM and a guild.

Real estate agents are legally acting as a lawyer in a very specific scope in some states. They are considered to be one, again in a very narrow scope. And no Realtors/real estate agents in no way is anything close to an mlm. They work as an authorized extension of a licenced broker. They work on their behalf with oversight and receive compensation. But that is literally every job.

Not lawyer, attorney (someone with the legal right to act on another's behalf in a legally binding manner). Where a lawyer is an attorney-at-law, a real estate agent (whether a "realtor" or not) would be an ad hoc attorney-in-fact.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#166

Post by [deleted] »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #103
eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an archaic way of doing things. In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic. In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.

[deleted]

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#167

Post by wongarsu »

sneak wrote: post #122
jchw wrote: post #50

I both love and hate this story. Unfairly handing out red light tickets is rotten, but fining the man who pointed it out is beyond rotten. It's corrupt. There's no question Oregon was defending its income with that move. Dirty money. I don't feel like reversing the fine is nearly enough of a response. There was effectively no punishment for issuing that fine. But, I'm still pleased with the outcomes Järlström keeps a…

The state has a monopoly on violence; they do not need to protect their reputation. They’re the only game in town.

Oregon may be the only game in town, but they are not the only game in the country. A bad reputation can lead to talent drain, less investment and fewer companies moving there.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#168

Post by lsiebert »

jdeibele wrote: post #160
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should we call the people who stoke fires on steam locomotives then?

Traditionally they're called firemen. Steam locomotives aren't commonly used anymore, so I assume you're making a joke about somebody on a train being a "firefighter".

I think the term stoker also applies.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#169

Post by 13of40 »

wongarsu wrote: post #167
sneak wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state has a monopoly on violence; they do not need to protect their reputation. They’re the only game in town.

Oregon may be the only game in town, but they are not the only game in the country. A bad reputation can lead to talent drain, less investment and fewer companies moving there.

The Oregon government doesn't seem to have any problem with Intel advertising "Software Engineer" positions on LinkedIn.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#170

Post by lsiebert »

DINKDINK wrote: post #119
ken wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you think anyone should be able to call themselves "physicians" or "lawyers" or "police", as those are English words that predate their professional associations?

Järlström didn't claim he was a Professional Engineer (a very specific certification) just an engineer. This case is akin to someone who does wood working in their house (maybe even studied it) calling themselves a carpenter but not a Licensed Carpenter. Speech can never be a crime "They have uttered the untoward words! Imprison them." Speech can breach a contract "You agreed not to yell fire in my theater, you owe m…

Yelling fire(falsely) in a theater wasn't an example of breach of contract that is prohibited by a private agreement, but an understanding that the government has the right to prohibit speech made with the specific intent to create criminal harm. It's also not, as far as I understand, not the current legal standard, as of 2010's Holder vs. Humanitarian Law Project.
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