Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

oregonlive.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 309 posts

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#121

Post by ggcdn »

Gibbon1 wrote: post #103
eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

Last time I had a discussion about this my put was that licensing is an archaic way of doing things. In short the idea is we trust the PE's signature that everything is copacetic. In more modern fields like automotive, aerospace and software engineering that idea is laughable. Everything is about process, audit and testing.

How do you propose municipal planning departments process, audit, and test the thousands of building permit drawings they receive every year? Have a staff of hundreds of engineers of their own? The professional reliance model seems to work well enough, but that isn't to say it is the optimal model out there.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#122

Post by sneak »

jchw wrote: post #50

I both love and hate this story. Unfairly handing out red light tickets is rotten, but fining the man who pointed it out is beyond rotten. It's corrupt. There's no question Oregon was defending its income with that move. Dirty money. I don't feel like reversing the fine is nearly enough of a response. There was effectively no punishment for issuing that fine. But, I'm still pleased with the outcomes Järlström keeps a…

The state has a monopoly on violence; they do not need to protect their reputation. They’re the only game in town.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#123

Post by cls59 »

cududa wrote: post #19
toomuchtodo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional Engineer has a fixed meaning though, and it's possible legislation would be updated to specifically reference PE language in statute. https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/what-pe > To become licensed, engineers must complete a four-year college degree, work under a Professional Engineer for at least four years, pass two intensive competency exams and earn a license from their state's licensure board.…

No, that’s one specific organizations trademark and private program. They happen to be a governing body for a narrow practice of engineering. For instance, audio engineer is a prominent title, but no governing certification body. You can’t call yourself a Realtor without belonging to a specific organization, but you can call yourself a real estate agent. Professional Engineer is a specific discipline handed a governm…

It is quite a bit more than structural engineering. 17 broad categories (at this date) with several sub-disciplines:

https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#124

Post by justinpombrio »

sandworm101 wrote: post #106
eigenvector wrote: post #32

As a licensed professional engineer, I find the effort exerted by various state and provincial licensing bodies to regulate the use of the term 'engineer' a bit tiresome. Yes, it's important to regulate the practice of engineering, but unlike some other types of professionals engineers rarely if ever offer their services to Joe Public. It's not like we have guys putting up billboards on the side of the highway advert…

I once worked in the live entertainment industry. We often had engineers sign off on stage/tower structures. When they got the math wrong things fell on heads. Our insurance demanded licensed engineers. Anyone using that term, professing, to be an engineer better be one. This case essentially removes engineer from the list of recognized professions. That club now only belongs to the doctors and lawyers. Even hairdres…

> Our insurance demanded licensed engineers. Anyone using that term, professing, to be an engineer better be one.

The guy didn't claim he was licensed. All he said was "I'm an engineer". All the court said was "He can say he's an engineer".

This doesn't sound very problematic to me. Like, presumably you'd ask where they were licensed, right? You wouldn't just accept anyone who said they were an engineer, and then rely on the state to issue a $500 fine to anyone who dared use the "E" word without being licensed in the US?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#125

Post by darpa_escapee »

wallace_f wrote: post #112
darpa_escapee wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I just don't see the harm in requiring someone to say "I am not a doctor, but..." if they want to give medical advice while giving themselves the title of Dr. without having earned it. However, I do see the harm in someone pretending to be a doctor and giving medical advice that can hurt or kill someone.

People should be held liable for intentionally stating non-truths with respect to one's own, or another's character: ie falsely claiming to have a certain medical license. Howver, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that ordinary people should not be able to tell their children, friends, parents, or anyone, medical advice. If so, where does it end? Can you tell your child to take medication? Which medicati…

> Howver, I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that ordinary people should not be able to tell their children, friends, parents, or anyone, medical advice.

Please do not strawman my position. The discussion was about people purposely portraying themselves as doctors and then dispensing medical advice.

I have no problem with someone giving medical advice. I do have a problem with someone pretending to be a doctor while giving medical advice.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#126

Post by rootusrootus »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #110
MetalGuru wrote: post #23

“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.” Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done…

> It could help develop accountability and best engineering practices. Have you ever read books about that? There are multiple layers of awful ideas about software engineering, touted as best practice. It's a cesspit of idiocy. Too many morons are going around trying to say things about engineering practices for it to be possible to make a useful accreditation. It would also end up being a negative hiring signal, lik…

A master's degree is a negative hiring signal? When did that start?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#128

Post by hodgesrm »

loeg wrote: post #114
lotsofpulp wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The quality of life hit is huge being away from home, sitting all the time, working nights, solar radiation, and having to work your way up in seniority in an industry that has a lot of ups and down.

Sure — but I think the original argument — that the pilot's union has artificially kept pay relatively high — is valid. Truck drivers have a very similar job but worse compensation (especially comparing senior workers).

With all due respect to the folks who drive 18-wheelers, flying a passenger aircraft and operating a truck require very different levels of training. Relatively small mistakes in operating an aircraft can have very serious consequences for large numbers of passengers.

Example: crew reacted incorrectly to autopilot problems following pitot tube obstruction by ice on AF 447 and stalled the aircraft, leading to death of all on board. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#129

Post by pard68 »

pkaye wrote: post #87
pard68 wrote: post #82

I work in sysops. My employer won't even consider a new hire without at least two different certificates (not licenses) which use the word "engineer" in them. I know a number of coworkers who refer to themselves as engineers but only hold a certificate to acknowledge this. Others have the term "engineer" in their title at work, and again no license. Glad to see that the English language is being defended and not bein…

What kind of certificates? Can I have two of my friends printout the engineer certificates in my name?

RHEL Engineer is one. Another is some networking cert.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#130

Post by stevespang »

Texas is next ! Texas bureaucrats have been hasseling software engineers for too long, claiming unless they "pay up" to the state their exorbitant licensing fees, they cannot use the word "engineer" on their business cards or anything business related.
Post reply on HN