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Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

oregonlive.com

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Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#51

Post by swalberg »

reaperducer wrote: post #20
Waterluvian wrote: post #2

This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.

The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. What do they call people who drive trains in Ontario?

In neighbouring Manitoba there's a carve out for locomotive engineers, power engineers, and certain types of electrical work, as long as they're certified by their respective bodies and not pretending to be a different kind of engineer. Didn't see anything in the Ontario act but I wouldn't be surprised if it were there somewhere.

edit: https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/e120e.php#66 section J

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#52

Post by pstrateman »

TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #40
c3534l wrote: post #7

I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…

I don’t think that’s what is happening here. The suit seems to be predicated on him calling himself an engineer

Did they invent the word engineer?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#53

Post by milkthefat »

c3534l wrote: post #7

I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…

The entire reason for this was scummy to begin with. Järlström had presented clear evidence that the system was flawed. The state or county he presented it to used his “public” title(engineer) to try and obscure the wide spread incompetence of the matter while taking nearly a year to resolve the maths in question.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#54

Post by ken »

c3534l wrote: post #7

I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…

So you think anyone should be able to call themselves "physicians" or "lawyers" or "police", as those are English words that predate their professional associations?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#55

Post by exabrial »

ibash wrote: post #5

“Jarlstrom’s interest stemmed from a red-light-running ticket his wife received in 2013. He spent three years analyzing the method for calculating the duration of a yellow light and found that the formula failed to account for drivers who must slow down to make a legal turn.” Quacks like a duck.

Sorry, but you didn't pay the special tax for the special piece of paper from the "us" government that that magically makes you qualified to do calculations. Do not pass go, go straight to jail.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#56

Post by greglindahl »

TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #40
c3534l wrote: post #7

I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…

I don’t think that’s what is happening here. The suit seems to be predicated on him calling himself an engineer

Where I live, people call themselves engineers all of the time, and it's not considered to imply any particular license or degree or accreditation.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#57

Post by mLuby »

tomjakubowski wrote: post #41
iamdave wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm putting my chips on them using the same word we do in the US: conductors ? Or is that the other fella in the train

The conductor manages all aspects of the train other than its locomotion. Oh, and they serve as the engineer's eyes when locomoving in reverse. :-)

This is why I love HN. You learn things you didn't even know you didn't know!

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#58

Post by AmericanChopper »

seibelj wrote: post #44
miker64 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you underestimate the knowledge and training to do dental work safely.

Maine allowed a special license for hygienists to do extra procedures, including cavity drilling (if a real dentist is in the building). It is going fine so far. https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-hy... However, getting the law changed to allow this has been fought tooth-and-nail, so to speak: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-unexpected-polit... Like all licensed professionals, denti…

I think of those guilds more as the most effective unions in the world. The reason lawyers, doctors, pilots, etc... are paid so well is because they’ve successfully limited entry into their fields. They’ve all got arduous entry requirements, and you can’t operate without the unions blessing. It’s simple supply and demand after that point.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#59

Post by CydeWeys »

seibelj wrote: post #48
CydeWeys wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's fair to lump dentistry in with cosmetology. Performing surgery on someone's teeth and jaw can have lifelong implications if done incorrectly, and it's thus worth having real training and licensing. Even something as seemingly simple as drilling and filling cavities has all sorts of risks. We already have a much lower level of licensing than DDS for common procedures that can be done safely, i.e. de…

As I responded to another commenter, this has been accomplished successfully in Maine: https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-hy...

Looks like new certifications have been developed that slot in between dental hygienist and dentist in terms of required training (independent practice dental hygienists and dental therapists). Neither can diagnose conditions themselves, though the latter can apparently drill and fill simple cavities under the supervision of an actual dentist. This hierarchy fits in pretty well with medicine, where there's nurse assistants, registered nurses, nurse practitioners, physician's assistants, DOs, and MDs.

And of course dentist itself isn't as high as you can get; these are procedures they won't do that you have to be referred to an oral surgeon for.

Anyway, point is, it's not nearly so simple as to just say that occupational licensing is extremely overdone in dentistry.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#60

Post by jshmrsn »

ken wrote: post #54
c3534l wrote: post #7

I know in the US you can call yourself a real estate agent, but not a Realtor unless you're part of the National Association of Realtors. This seems just to me: an organization shouldn't be allowed to steal a word from the English language like "engineer." But if you want to create your own brand and maintain its quality, you're more than welcome to invent a novel term and do that. But simply claiming by fiat that yo…

So you think anyone should be able to call themselves "physicians" or "lawyers" or "police", as those are English words that predate their professional associations?

I think the OP's point was that the National Association of Realtors is a private organization, not a democratically formed government institution.
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