Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
>Unlike an “M.D.” or “certified public accountant,” there is no fixed meaning to the title “engineer,” but many different types of engineers, the judge found.
[deleted]
Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
21–30 of 309 posts
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#22Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
In many circumstances, yes. Fraud and commercial speech are subject to more restrictions. If someone isn't holding themselves out in a commercial context as one who is licensed to practice medicine, isn't actually practicing medicine, and isn't otherwise committing fraud, it's probably ok legally speaking.
See United States v. Alvarez for a Supreme Court case that grapples with such issues. A man falsely claimed to be a veteran and a recipient of the Medal of Honor at a government meeting. He was prosecuted and convicted for this conduct. He appealed to the Supreme Court and won.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#23“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.”
Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done any engineering.
“Unlike an “M.D.” or “certified public accountant,” there is no fixed meaning to the title “engineer,” but many different types of engineers, the judge found.”
Haven’t really thought through all the ramifications of this, but it could actually be beneficial for software engineers to have an official accreditation. It could help develop accountability and best engineering practices.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#24“Jarlstrom’s interest stemmed from a red-light-running ticket his wife received in 2013. He spent three years analyzing the method for calculating the duration of a yellow light and found that the formula failed to account for drivers who must slow down to make a legal turn.” Quacks like a duck.
Actually it struck me as really tenacious of him and I'd be willing to believe he has some merit. I'd like to see the data.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#25I would argue that occupational licensing is extremely overdone, even in the riskier professions like medicine and dentistry. Here is a recent article from the NYT about the horrible situation of cosmetology licensing: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/business/cosmetology-scho...
I'm not saying we don't need occupational licensing whatsoever. But there is no reason someone can't learn to drill a cavity in 6 months of training. $400k of dental school debt is not required.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#26Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?
Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves an alien? a gnome? a horse? If you can call yourself a horse, then it makes sense that you can also call yourself a doctor.
Maybe context should be taken into account?
I have no problems with people calling themselves doctors (whether fake or real) unless they are doing so in order to gain a certain advantage (trust, credibility, etc).
I only have a problem when someone pretends to be a doctor if they're trying to profit or harm people in some way, by for example making medication or similar.
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#27Yes, an overly broad law about the use of the title "engineer," the outcome of this will be laws updated to use the term "professional engineer" and the scope refocused on commercial context. (as in: You can't claim to be a structural engineer to get a gig...)
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#28This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.
The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. What do they call people who drive trains in Ontario?
I'm putting my chips on them using the same word we do in the US: conductors? Or is that the other fella in the train
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#29This is interesting to me because in Ontario where I reside, I cannot call myself an engineer. The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. But my employer is in Massachusetts, where I can be called an engineer. So I'm not sure if my business cards can get me in trouble here.
The professional engineering association is ruthless in enforcing it. What do they call people who drive trains in Ontario?
Not exactly sure. I just know about this:
Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech
#30I would argue that occupational licensing is extremely overdone, even in the riskier professions like medicine and dentistry. Here is a recent article from the NYT about the horrible situation of cosmetology licensing: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/26/business/cosmetology-scho... I'm not saying we don't need occupational licensing whatsoever. But there is no reason someone can't learn to drill a cavity in 6 months…
It’s just job security for the people who have already gone into debt / a way to keep the supply of specialized workers low. For example, the AMA limits the amount of doctors able to graduate from the US so much we are constantly required to allow foreign doctors to immigrate to meet our actual needs
And doctors usually work very long hours too, suggesting there is still a shortage even with the immigration. But, I guess this keeps salaries high