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Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

oregonlive.com

81–90 of 309 posts

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#81
post #4

Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?

There's a difference between seeing patients and dispensing medical service, on the one hand, and posting your medical theories online, on the other. This case is about this man's behavior being firmly on the "posting theories online" side of the line.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#82
I work in sysops. My employer won't even consider a new hire without at least two different certificates (not licenses) which use the word "engineer" in them. I know a number of coworkers who refer to themselves as engineers but only hold a certificate to acknowledge this. Others have the term "engineer" in their title at work, and again no license.

Glad to see that the English language is being defended and not being used for what is clearly state sanctioned bullying.

Maybe I should start using the term engineer...

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#83
post #50

I both love and hate this story. Unfairly handing out red light tickets is rotten, but fining the man who pointed it out is beyond rotten. It's corrupt. There's no question Oregon was defending its income with that move. Dirty money. I don't feel like reversing the fine is nearly enough of a response. There was effectively no punishment for issuing that fine. But, I'm still pleased with the outcomes Järlström keeps a…

I find the original red-light story that precipitated this fine to be more interesting than the fine/engineer word story.

His side of the story is here: http://www.jarlstrom.com/redflex/ . In short, the timings don't account for the time it takes for a car to _clear_ an intersection.

His lawsuit against the city's yellow light timings was dismissed because he failed to show standing. It is somewhat interesting that he took the tack of hypothetical damage as a pedestrian instead of a contested red-light ticket. Perhaps the ticket(s) that precipitated the research didn't satisfy the exact conditions of this challenge.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#84

“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.” Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done…

In theory perhaps but in practice it seems a bit dubious right now given existing certifications haven't had the best of reputations. I doubt 'official' will be much better in the US at least given history. Between the Clipper-chip, S-boxes, Elliptical curve, and many embarrassingly easy security breaches I think an official certification would result in the same 'counterproductive to list in most cases' as many private certifications if not worse.

They have shown themselves repeatably to be neither trustworthy nor competent and thus have negative credibility. Software engineers have a reputation of being like cats - you don't herd them to an official standard, you lure them unofficially to something with 'tuna' and some may prefer chicken anyway.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. That's fraud and already illegal.

What makes it fraud, what makes them calling themselves a lawyer not valid, if not the law?

Fraud is lying for financial gain. Lying for its own sake is not. You can say and pretend you are a lawyer as much as you like, but only as long as you don't do it to decieve someone for money.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#86

“The record before this Court demonstrates that the Board has repeatedly targeted individuals for using the title ‘engineer’ in non-commercial contexts, including core political speech such as campaigning for public office and advocacy against a local ballot initiative.” Although I agree with the sentiment of the article, I do think it would be deceptive for a politician to claim to be an engineer if they hadn’t done…

> it could actually be beneficial for software engineers to have an official accreditation

I've waffled on this, and I'd be curious to hear input from others. On the one hand, software engineers are building systems which have incredible reach and impact. It's reasonable to want to ensure these systems are being built by people with some solid body of knowledge and skills.

However, software engineering as a field changes relatively quickly, and we hardly ever reach a consensus about the best way to do anything. It's often somewhat unclear to me whether we're making forward progress at all (because we keep inventing "new" ways to build the same things). And because software is in every kind of system, two very skilled and productive software engineers might actually have very few overlapping tools in their toolbox. Could we ever agree on what should be part of the official accreditation, and how long would it be good for?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#87
post #82

I work in sysops. My employer won't even consider a new hire without at least two different certificates (not licenses) which use the word "engineer" in them. I know a number of coworkers who refer to themselves as engineers but only hold a certificate to acknowledge this. Others have the term "engineer" in their title at work, and again no license. Glad to see that the English language is being defended and not bein…

What kind of certificates? Can I have two of my friends printout the engineer certificates in my name?

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#88
post #6
post #4

Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves a doctor, too?

Does free speech mean anyone can call themselves an alien? a gnome? a horse? If you can call yourself a horse, then it makes sense that you can also call yourself a doctor.

What if one changes their last name to "MD"

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#89
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maine allowed a special license for hygienists to do extra procedures, including cavity drilling (if a real dentist is in the building). It is going fine so far. https://www.pressherald.com/2018/02/04/independent-dental-hy... However, getting the law changed to allow this has been fought tooth-and-nail, so to speak: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/the-unexpected-polit... Like all licensed professionals, denti…

I think of those guilds more as the most effective unions in the world. The reason lawyers, doctors, pilots, etc... are paid so well is because they’ve successfully limited entry into their fields. They’ve all got arduous entry requirements, and you can’t operate without the unions blessing. It’s simple supply and demand after that point.

Two of the three fields you mention are not paid especially well on average.

Re: Federal judge finds state law governing who is an engineer violates free speech

#90
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dr Pepper

Not a person. Literally incapable of practicing medicine. Or anything beyond the quenching of thirst. Now if there were a graduate degree for that , I'd audit a class or two.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_T._Pepper

I only googled that out of a sense that if someone was willing to be so dismissive off the cuff then perhaps, just perhaps, there actually really was a real Dr. Pepper and that I might find him and prove that person wrong.

Well... I didn't plan on learning that today.

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