China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks • Hacker News Board

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#261

Post by mikeash » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 4:37 PM UTC

rohit2412 wrote: post #228

mikeash wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They’re still a win even when you use coal to charge. It’s true that manufacturing is more energy intensive, but the breakeven point is in the neighborhood of 10-20,000 miles.

Win compared to old models of gasoline and deisel? probably yes. Win compared to more efficient modern versions, I'm not sure. Win compared to hybrids? No way.

I don't think so. The added impact of battery manufacturing is quite small compared to the impact of manufacturing any vehicle, and that in turn is a fairly small proportion of the total impact of a vehicle over its lifetime.

Only looking at driving, a Prius emits about 238 grams of CO2 per mile. A reasonably efficient EV charging from the US's current generation mix emits about 150 grams/mile. If we assume they'll last 200,000 miles on average, that's about 17 tonnes more CO2 for the Prius. The EV produces in the neighborhood of 6 tonnes more CO2 during manufacture compared to a traditional gas car, and this advantage will be slightly smaller compared to a hybrid.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#262

Post by mijamo » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #92

marvin wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That type of taxation of externalities is really a no-brainer in the West too, but there’s just not democratic majority for implementing it. A tragedy. Tragedy of the commons, really, on a spectacular scale. A general CO2 tax wouldn’t be hard to implement if we were a dictatorship.

A general CO2 tax wouldn’t be hard to implement if we were a dictatorship. It's ideas like this why Americans are heavily armed. Nobody can explain how a "co2 tax" would actually do good, yet you implicitly advocate killing people to enact it.

I don't see how heavily armed Americans change anything. Personnal weapons would not change a dictatorship. If anything it would just justify killing opponents for armed rebellion/terrorism. It's not like your gun will stop tanks...

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#263

Post by WhompingWindows » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 4:46 PM UTC

joncrane wrote: post #220

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

1. You've forgotten WHERE the emissions occur. Would you prefer it next to children waiting for the school bus in urban neighborhoods OR out in the factory district? 2. Batteries are a new technology, they will get faster much better than ICE engines, since they are already mature tech 3. batteries do not use "lots" of toxic chemicals. Li-ion is the main type of battery used in EV's and buses and the tricky/worrisome chemicals are in the VAST minority compared with Li, Al, and other safe compounds. 4. Yes, experts have done the analysis, many many times. You are perpetuating false myths that climate change deniers like to use.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#264

Post by sumedh » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 4:51 PM UTC

benj111 wrote: post #143

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>We're all looking at Tesla to bring electric cars to the masses. Should we be looking at China instead? Right now, Tesla consumes more than 60% of the word EV batteries and their shares is still increasing. I'm sure most of the world's EVs will be Chinese but the most high-end ones will probably be Teslas (made in Shanghai if need be). One can draw a parallel with the smartphones market :)

The smartphone parallel is what I was thinking of. More particularly the transition from dumb phone, to smart phone, Tha basically destroyed most of the incumbents. I take it you're saying Tesla is Apple. Perhaps, you don't have the network effects and lock in with cars, that you do with phones, and Tesla don't seem to make 'the best' hardware like Apple do, but I don't have a crystal ball either, so I won't argue.

> you don't have the network effects and lock in with cars

Maybe charging stations is the network effect, Tesla has lot stations across the US so you know you wont run out of juice on your trip.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#265

Post by jillesvangurp » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:00 PM UTC

joncrane wrote: post #220

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

The chemicals can be recycled and doing so is highly lucrative give how scarce some of them are.

China is also a technology leader in producing the means to clean up their energy act (solar panels, wind mills, etc.) and is also deploying these on a massive scale.

And it's not like it is super efficient to ship oil across the globe by burning more oil to produce fuel (in a process that is not exactly clean either), which then gets transported by burning some more oil, so that you can burn it in a car using a combustion engine that mostly produces noise and heat.

So, no, these are not show stoppers.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#266

Post by Synaesthesia » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:02 PM UTC

fiala__ wrote: post #116

FooHentai wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, in a weird way it's working in a way that aligns to wider, long-term, individual interests. By making the government the controlling monopoly, China ends up with a form of capitalism where externalities apply to other countries rather than surrounding corporations and citizens. That's kinda interesting compared to how most other capitalist nations are handling their shit right now. You can do 'common good' s…

This is kind of similar to how the USSR industrialised in the 1930s. Western nations were simply stunned at the rate of change, and while we now know it was underscored by unspeakable atrocities, it still applies that such a tightly controlled economy can be very agile and responsive to threats such as climate change.

The atrocities were very much avoidable and unnecessary though.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#267

Post by r_klancer » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

castratikron wrote: post #200

elorant wrote: post #87

We have electric buses in Greece since the mid 50s. The key difference with modern era buses is that they don't work with batteries but rely on an infrastructure of aerial power lines to which they connect with two antennas protruding from the top of the vehicle. One thing I remember from whenever I was on board them is how damn slow they move. Occasionally the antennas will disconnect which means the driver will has…

Only place I've seen those in the US is in San Francisco.

There are also some trollebuses in Cambridge, Mass, heading west of Harvard Square toward Watertown. as I understand it, they replaced regular trolleys some decades ago (1950s?)

Also, Boston's Silver Line buses start their journey in a tunnel, running on overhead power for several stops, then switch to CNG to complete their route aboveground.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#268

Post by jillesvangurp » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

dev_dull wrote: post #249

Has there been any research into safe, electrified highways? I imagine if the car could cruise while essentially “plugged in” it would dramatically increase the range and ability of EVs. Challenging task I admit.

Fixing infrastructure is expensive. Just look at the roads and bridges in e.g. the US or Germany. Just to single out two countries with a mighty car lobby and crumbling infrastructure.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#269

Post by CalRobert » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

isostatic wrote: post #189

ovi256 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're an almost completely urban population with a high standard of living. Of course that needs energy and greenshouse emissions to make happen.

Urburnites claim that city living is cleaner (co2 wise) that living in the country

Living near the people and things you need, walking, cycling, and taking electrified public transport to said things, and multi-family dwellings allowing the use of district heating (or heat pumps powered by renewable energy) can drastically reduce your carbon footprint compared to living in the burbs and driving to everything.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2009/mar/23/city-dwe...

Of course, you _can_ have a low carbon footprint in the country, but it's really hard, because those places are hostile to cycling and walking.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#270

Post by twblalock » Mon, Dec 03, 2018, 5:16 PM UTC

thinkcontext wrote: post #253

moduspol wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't use nearly as much vehicle fuel in Europe as they do in the US. More clearly stated, my point is that what's really needed is people to adjust their consumption downward dramatically, but the taxes necessary to cause that will be politically infeasible.

> People don't use nearly as much vehicle fuel in Europe as they do in the US. And you don't think the difference in prices has anything to do with that?

Increasing fuel prices will only incentivize people to drive less if there are alternative means of transportation. Those are absent in most parts of the US.

You could double the price of gas in the US and driving would not change much, because people would have no other way to get to work and get their kids to school. The most you could hope for is that people would buy more efficient cars.