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China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

wsj.com

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Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#221

Post by jchanimal »

bluGill wrote: post #187
fiala__ wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is kind of similar to how the USSR industrialised in the 1930s. Western nations were simply stunned at the rate of change, and while we now know it was underscored by unspeakable atrocities, it still applies that such a tightly controlled economy can be very agile and responsive to threats such as climate change.

A tightly controlled economy is better able to do whatever the leaders are interested in. The capitalists response is yes, but a less regulated economy gets there only a little slower anyway, while because it is trying more things it can get to something better instead. It is easy to see what we gained by whatever was done in the past, but it is hard to see what we gave up because we didn't choose to do something els…

Assuming the best ideas can get funding.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#222

Post by kodablah »

794CD01 wrote: post #192
ams6110 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are hard to implement in many countries, including the USA, because people have seen that the tax money is not spent on what proponents say it will be spent on. You'd have a hard time getting a CO2 tax passed because it would just end up going into the general fund and get spent on pet projects, not on anything that really addressed CO2 emissions, or helped with the cost of alternative fuels or vehicles.

Even more good could be done if the money were spent well, but the fact that the tax must be paid at all serves as the incentive that pushes behavior in a more environmentally friendly direction.

There are less regressive ways to incentivize change. Taking money from people hurts the people that rely on money more. Rather, investment and encouragement of particular industries is less punitive, but again goes back to valuable spending of public funds.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#223

Post by thinkcontext »

moduspol wrote: post #179
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not having a dictatorship -- it's having a national economic strategy and a popular will to make decisions without letting very particular selfish interests get in the way. It does not require an authoritarian central leadership. But it does require stopping and rolling back the capture of political bodies and the public sphere generally by private interests.

Respectfully, it's a pipe dream. If gas, energy, or home heating prices double, whoever's in power is going to be voted out. It's not the capture of political bodies that drives that--it's normal people. It'll take a suspension of democracy or a long time to make a measurable impact on climate change.

Its not impossible, vehicle fuel prices in Europe are over twice what they are in the US because of taxes.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#224

Post by mikeash »

joncrane wrote: post #220

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

They’re still a win even when you use coal to charge. It’s true that manufacturing is more energy intensive, but the breakeven point is in the neighborhood of 10-20,000 miles.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#225

Post by datpuz »

joncrane wrote: post #220

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

You have heard wrong.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#226

Post by withhighprod »

joncrane wrote: post #220

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

It won’t be based on burning coal forever right? Actually the EVs CAN be a driver for building cleaner power plant.

Chinese leaders definitely think long term given they could have longer impact even after they retired (Deng and Jiang remained powerful for years after they “stepped down”)

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#227

Post by z2 »

tedshroyer wrote: post #216

Chattanooga has operated electric buses since the 1990s. I would be surprised if this wasn't known by many municipalities in the US, but still it hasn't taken off. Numbers from late 90s indicate that fuel and maintenance costs would be about 1/4 the cost of diesel( https://afdc.energy.gov/files/pdfs/chatt_cs.pdf ). I guess range has been the problem stopping adoption.

Buses seemed to me to be a rare case where they are so big and heavy anyway, that low energy density from a cheap and old-fashioned lead acid battery could still work. But you're right, I started searching, and found a 2005 US DOT analysis that said otherwise: https://www.transit.dot.gov/sites/fta.dot.gov/files/Electric...

> Consequently, powering a full-size bus would require a battery pack that is unacceptably large and heavy, as well as too costly to make a battery-electric bus commercially competitive.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#228

Post by rohit2412 »

mikeash wrote: post #224
joncrane wrote: post #220

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

They’re still a win even when you use coal to charge. It’s true that manufacturing is more energy intensive, but the breakeven point is in the neighborhood of 10-20,000 miles.

Win compared to old models of gasoline and deisel? probably yes.

Win compared to more efficient modern versions, I'm not sure.

Win compared to hybrids? No way.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#229

Post by joncrane »

datpuz wrote: post #225
joncrane wrote: post #220

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

You have heard wrong.

Source(s)?

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#230

Post by reirob »

mikeash wrote: post #224
joncrane wrote: post #220

I've heard that the environmental impact of building the vehicles (the batteries in particular) and charging them outweighs the savings in emissions. Basically batteries use lots of toxic chemicals and require LOTS of energy during manufacture. Also isn't most electricity generation in China still based on burning coal? Have any experts done any analysis to see what environmental benefit this brings, if any?

They’re still a win even when you use coal to charge. It’s true that manufacturing is more energy intensive, but the breakeven point is in the neighborhood of 10-20,000 miles.

Do you have any references for the break even point?
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