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China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

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Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#131

Post by masklinn »

kd5bjo wrote: post #111
chiefalchemist wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure of the exact details but taxis are different. Think of any big city taxi - NYC, London, etc. - you've ever gotten into. Bigger. Boxier. More trunk space, etc. Now consider GM's plant closing in the USA. Plants are configured to produce certain vehicles. Volume matters. Yes, cars and taxis are close, but for a number of reasons probably not as close as you think.

Until recently, the most common vehicle I saw being used as a taxi was a Ford Crown Victoria -- a large standard sedan with an aftermarket partition between the front and back seats.

Indeed the vast, vast majority of taxis throughout the world are fairly standard large sedans and hatchbacks with either aftermarket or manufacturer-provided modifications.

The UK (and especially London and its famous purpose built "black cabs") is probably the biggest exception (the models are exported and can be found outside the UK, but I doubt that would be the case if TfL didn't have such stringent license regulations that simple conversions are not an option).

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#133

Post by pferde »

iguy wrote: post #119
fiala__ wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've been in continuous use in Bratislava since the 1940s, and they also have the hybrid ones. They're especially suitable for steep slopes where rail-based transport doesn't work. Absolutely iconic vehicles!

Do the hybrid ones have any clever way to re-connect? All the busses I've seen have this system where the driver has to walk to the back and pull on some rubber bands to put the tentacles back on the wires. If this could be automated, then perhaps you could omit wires at big junctions where it's most messy, needs lots of points, etc. Building & maintaining wires with 90% coverage might cost half as much as 100% cover…

Yes, where the hybrid buses connect to the wires (usually at certain bus stops), the wires have sort of "tentacle catchers" on them, shaped as upside-down Vs.

The driver just has to stop on the usual spot, press a button, and while passengers are boarding and exiting, the "tentacles" unfurl, and are guided by these "catchers" towards wires. The driver just watches for a light to go on on his dashboard.

It works pretty well - in many years, I have only seen once that the tentacles did not end up where they should, and the driver had to get out and manually correct it.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#134

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

benj111 wrote: post #81
lolive wrote: post #56

Let's consider hydrogen cars are the next big thing. Is it a good move to go massively towards electric cars? Especially regarding batteries that will have to be massively replaced in 2 years?

Why 2 years? Batteries last longer than that. Hydrogen has problems, hydrogen embrittlement, its extremely hard to contain. Additionally hydrogen's major strength, that it continues the current fill up at a filling station dynamic* means that it needs to start making gains now, while there are still petrol stations left, to make the switch to hydrogen. Hydrogen may well 'win' but I don't think its an open and shut ca…

>Hydrogen may well 'win' but I don't think its an open and shut case.

How? My understanding is that hydrogen is either produced from fossil fuels (aka non-renewable) or from electrolysis but the latter won't be economical for many decades AFAIK.

Worst, all things considered, hydrogen cars are still far less efficient that battery EV: https://insideevs.com/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-7...

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#135

Post by plextoria »

paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

We never got rid of them in Moldova! Trolley lines must still be running in most post soviet countries.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#136

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

lolive wrote: post #84
lustysocietyorg wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK use of hydrogen is inefficient in several ways (creation, storage) and thus there is no reason to expect that hydrogen fuel is the next big thing for cars. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNV8qi_rJBg IMO the next big things are: - Fuel like ethanol. https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2017/09/18/solar-fuel-system-recy... - Quickly charging batteries that are not affected by dendrites.

From that perspective, there will be a strong need for various rare earth elements. Leading to an insane amount of pollution. Are there any breakthroughs in rare earth extraction & treatment process?

> From that perspective, there will be a strong need for various rare earth elements. Leading to an insane amount of pollution. Are there any breakthroughs in rare earth extraction & treatment process?

What rare earth elements are you talking about, exactly? I keep hearing about the scarcity of such "rare" elements, but except lithium (which isn't that rare, it's just we haven't invested in the infrastructure), I'm not aware of the lack of any other materials needed for EV cells.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#137

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

RidingPegasus wrote: post #18
rch wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They know that they'll have an easier time producing batteries and electricity than gasoline, that's all.

Is the world running out of petrol? Chinese fuel prices are fairly cheap on a global scale. It has far more to do with public discontent over air quality than petro-politics.

We can have cheap oil and still run out of it.

That's what happens when you replace all ICE with EV until you don't have much oil to extract economically.

"The Stone Age didn’t end for lack of stone, and the oil age will end long before the world runs out of oil." -- Sheikh Zaki Yamani

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#138

Post by D_Alex »

paganel wrote: post #85

Why don't we bring trolleybuses back? They rock! You don't need polluting batteries in order to run them, just some copper to put the wires up, and we've been master of this "technology" for almost a century now. Also, we should extend or re-introduce the tram network.

Simply because electric buses are the superior technology right now.

Metro bus services is actually an ideal application for electric vehicles: The needed range is short, charging facilities can be in one place (depot), stop-start driving suits the propulsion system, and low noise and no emissions are a bonus in the highly populated areas.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#139

Post by NeedMoreTea »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #134
benj111 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why 2 years? Batteries last longer than that. Hydrogen has problems, hydrogen embrittlement, its extremely hard to contain. Additionally hydrogen's major strength, that it continues the current fill up at a filling station dynamic* means that it needs to start making gains now, while there are still petrol stations left, to make the switch to hydrogen. Hydrogen may well 'win' but I don't think its an open and shut ca…

>Hydrogen may well 'win' but I don't think its an open and shut case. How? My understanding is that hydrogen is either produced from fossil fuels (aka non-renewable) or from electrolysis but the latter won't be economical for many decades AFAIK. Worst, all things considered, hydrogen cars are still far less efficient that battery EV: https://insideevs.com/efficiency-compared-battery-electric-7...

Orkney are in the early stages of moving to hydrogen from electrolysis for the ferries. To replace diesel and because they've already reached 100% of power from renewables so they're actively looking for other fossil uses they can move to renewable.

Germany has some similar projects creating hydrogen as storage for renewables, and replacing some diesel trains with hydrogen.

I'm less convinced it will replace petrol, but there is definitely a case for it replacing many uses of diesel.

Re: China ‘Is the Only One in the Race’ to Make Electric Buses, Taxis and Trucks

#140

Post by toine_toine »

rcMgD2BwE72F wrote: post #126
benj111 wrote: post #71

So its interesting to think what will happen when they turn their gaze outwards. How long will it take Chinese brands to be a force to be reckoned with? Yes they might be sniffed at to start with, but that's only the same as Japanese cars in the 60s, Skoda in the 90s and most recently Kia, but other manufacturers won't be able to get away with calling them cheap tat for long (assuming they aren't). I assume there are…

>We're all looking at Tesla to bring electric cars to the masses. Should we be looking at China instead? Right now, Tesla consumes more than 60% of the word EV batteries and their shares is still increasing. I'm sure most of the world's EVs will be Chinese but the most high-end ones will probably be Teslas (made in Shanghai if need be). One can draw a parallel with the smartphones market :)

> Right now, Tesla consumes more than 60% of the world EV batteries

Not sure where you heard that but that is completely false. BYD alone shipped over 100,000 electric cars (not including buses) in the third quarter (compared to Tesla's 83,000). Other Chinese car companies BAIC, Rowe, and Geel all ship over 20k+ plug-ins per quarter.

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