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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#151

Post by saosebastiao »

icelancer wrote: post #109
JustSomeNobody wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is true. The stock market demands their hockey stick. If Google doesn't go after the Chinese market, their stock value will suffer. It's all about returning as much money to investors as possible. Period. Otherwise you suffer the consequences.

Amazon specifically does not do the last part of your decree, and their stock price seems to be pretty good.

...as long as their revenue keeps increasing.

AMZNs stock price isn't driven by current earnings, but it isnt driven by investor magnanimity either. It's all about the promise of future earnings. If revenues flatline or decline, you can expect their stock prices to fall in line with their peers.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#152

Post by nabla9 »

exabrial wrote: post #78

I have mixed feelings about this... I fully support free information not filtered by nation states, but abandoning search in China means you abandon the chance to make it a better place :/ I think developers and engineers we often do assign enough value to "progress" vs perfection. Rome didn't fall in a day, as they say.

I think you are misapplying the argument used for trade and doing the business.

The mechanisms that change the system from inside that come from trade don't apply in this case. Either you are able to use different rules to change the system or not.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#154

Post by burneracclordo »

komali2 wrote: post #94
patrickaljord wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why single out China though? If Google had to stop doing business in any country that forces it to censor stuff, they would not be allowed anywhere, I think even the US forces them to filter out illegal gambling. Where does it stop?

It boils down to what the American culture, or I guess the employees at Google's culture, are willing to censor. China wants to censor its own human rights violations, I think there morally bad. Certain EU Nations want to prevent fat right nationalist radicalization via censorship. I think that's clumsy, but good. So hence "why single out China." It stops whenever the employees put up a fight. Isn't that the point of…

> Certain EU Nations want to prevent fat right nationalist radicalization via censorship. I think that's clumsy, but good.

But, who will be deciding what is considered as ultra-nationalist? Some liberal government that might be overly corrupt and is about to lose the election could just label their political opponents as modern day Nazis and have them be censored on Google search. For example Germany treats the AfD as a far-right party, but in other countries they would be centrist at best. There is no middle ground, because morals wary from individual, we might try a consensus, but that would destroy individual rights. To me it seems that it's best to have a censor-free search engine, perhaps only censor stuff that is related to illegal activities or terrorism, but make everything else be publicly available.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#156

Post by Jmcdd »

Aunche wrote: post #84
educationdata wrote: post #10

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

Or it's because they would rather access to a censored Google without using a VPN when they visit China. If they really think that Dragonfly is worse than Baidu or Bing, they don't have to use it. This is a classic case of privileged westerners deciding that they know better than the actual residents – a modern day white man's burden. Edit: Flagged for an unpopular view. Hacker news has sunk to a new low. Whatever gu…

>This is a classic case of privileged westerners deciding that they know better than the actual residents

>Our opposition to Dragonfly is not about China: we object to technologies that aid the powerful in oppressing the vulnerable, wherever they may be.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#157

Post by abecedarius »

netheril96 wrote: post #119
educationdata wrote: post #10

There are not many Chinese names in the signed letter, and I can fully understand. If you are a Chinese H1B or green card holder, and you signed this letter, it is almost certain the Chinese government will contact your family in China.

Or that they genuinely hold different views.

Too bad for the Chinese state. If you try to promote a view by threatening others who might express a different one, I'm not going to weigh that neutrally.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#158

Post by tested243 »

aibrahem wrote: post #136

As someone who lived most of his life in a dictatorship, I really struggle to understand the logic of these employees. I was actually surprised Google stepped out of China a couple of years ago and felt like the decision was taken by a bunch of people who don't understand what it's like to live in a non-democratic country. Do they think that everybody in China cares that their internet is censored or that they're bei…

Yes it’s understand that the majority in China are completely fine with the ethnic cleansing of Uyghers. The rest of the world doesn’t need to take part in it.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#159

Post by TheForumTroll »

onion2k wrote: post #125
notyourwork wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Businesses are not in the business of simply being profitable, they are usually in the business of increasing revenue and profits beyond the current state.

Nothing about my question suggests Google wouldn't be able to continue to grow by focusing on the 80% of the world that isn't China. China may be the lowest-hanging fruit of the search and ad market, but surely you're not suggesting Google would shy away from a challenge and only go for the easy win? That doesn't sounds like the Google we all know.

I'd say it sounds exactly like the google we know.

People want a messenger app? Let's make one! Oh, it takes time and energy. Let's shut it down. Oh wait, people want a messenger app. Let's make one. Oh, it takes [........]

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#160

Post by 5874-4b22-a4e0 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #102
admax88q wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google would likely achieve dominant search engine market share in China within a few years You assume that the government would ever let a foreign company get dominant market share over a domestic one. China is no where close to a free market, the winners are chosen.

China has a vested interest in spreading it's influence globally, the same way the United States has (and is receding from a bit under the current administration). It would be far more valuable to China to get a global company like Google propagating their censorship requirements than continuing to prop up their own state-run option. If Google caves, other countries might ask for the same demands as well, which suppo…

Why not let these companies in, let them operate for a few years, then migrate the ownership to a state owned company?
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