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We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

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Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#91

Post by schalab »

hnphillipj wrote: post #47

Given how trash of a search engine Baidu is, Google would likely achieve market share dominance in China within a couple years - should they move forward with Dragonfly. Complying with demands of the Chinese gov't is the only way they can penetrate the Chinese market. Search engine advertising constitutes close to 85% of Google's revenue. And unlike Project Maven, which was ended due to internal resistance from emplo…

Why dont western companies band together and threaten a boycott until some kind of IP laws are enforced?

They just keep getting picked off one by one.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#92

Post by pixl97 »

melling wrote: post #12
patrickaljord wrote: post #9

If I was in China and had to choose between having a choice between censored baidu and censored google vs just censored baidu, I'd rather have both baidu and google. It's easy for us here in the western world as we have access to both and more uncensored sources to take the moral high ground and subject the Chinese to a "let them eat cake" attitude. Not sure if this will benefit people over there though to ban google…

Google can't change the laws in China. Personally, I'd rather have Google in China if I lived there. It's a great tool. People should be made aware that there's a filter and all searches are made available to the government.

>Google can't change the laws in China

But Facebook can influence elections. Something isn't adding up to 100% here.

More so, I'm not worried about Google influencing China, I'm worried about China putting pressure on Google to spy on the world or lose potential profits.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#93

Post by notyourwork »

onion2k wrote: post #85
hnphillipj wrote: post #47

Given how trash of a search engine Baidu is, Google would likely achieve market share dominance in China within a couple years - should they move forward with Dragonfly. Complying with demands of the Chinese gov't is the only way they can penetrate the Chinese market. Search engine advertising constitutes close to 85% of Google's revenue. And unlike Project Maven, which was ended due to internal resistance from emplo…

doing business with the second largest economy in the world isn't an expendable venture Google could continue to operate profitably without doing business in China, so what makes your statement true?

Businesses are not in the business of simply being profitable, they are usually in the business of increasing revenue and profits beyond the current state.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#94

Post by komali2 »

patrickaljord wrote: post #66
alexandercrohde wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the more reason to take a stand right now.

Why single out China though? If Google had to stop doing business in any country that forces it to censor stuff, they would not be allowed anywhere, I think even the US forces them to filter out illegal gambling. Where does it stop?

It boils down to what the American culture, or I guess the employees at Google's culture, are willing to censor.

China wants to censor its own human rights violations, I think there morally bad. Certain EU Nations want to prevent fat right nationalist radicalization via censorship. I think that's clumsy, but good.

So hence "why single out China." It stops whenever the employees put up a fight. Isn't that the point of integrating a company-wide value system? You want to mimic an individual value system, in that you are clear on why you made certain decisions, because you can point to your value system?

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#95

Post by nakedrobot2 »

OH these fresh young naive minds, who think censorship never happens. Censorship happens ALL THE TIME. The Radio, TV, and Film industries in the USA - they have all been censored, from the very beginning.[1] So it was self-censorship at the behest of the government. What's the difference? Censorship is all around us.

Americans self-censor tits and genitals, Europeans self-censor violence. Censorship is everywhere.

I think this whole discussion is extremely naive.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Master-Switch-Rise-Information-Empire...

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#96

Post by Jorge1o1 »

altmind wrote: post #27

The alternative to google censoring its search is using chinese services - search, shopping, payment, IM. For work reasons I had to use chinese web, and believe me, the later is much worse for a westerner. Minimal i18n, confusing visual design, payments that dont go throught, random network errors, total reliance on you having a mobile phone. Yes, censhorship is bad, but I rather use censored service from a western c…

It’s not just about having a search engine that’s fast and convenient albeit “censored.”

It’s very plausible that Dragonfly will be used to feed people in China flat out misinformation and lies, and then monitor them 24/7.

News that doesn’t toe the party line will literally be deleted. Try and search for a controversial book or subject, and you’ll be placed on a watchlist. Fake news and government created media will be the first and only result always. In other words, the Chinese government will have more access than ever into the minds of its people, and then it will try to either manipulate them or just repress the problematic ones.

This will happen whether Baidu or Google does it, but that doesn’t make it morally acceptable for Google to join in. We don’t get a free pass to do evil just because we’re not the first.

In fact, it’s worse for Google than Baidu. The people at Baidu don’t have a choice, it’s the country they were born in. But Google is one of the world’s richest companies, and if they chose not to operate in China, it would just maintain the status quo, not actively hurt them.

There’s no moral justification for this, even if now the search engine is faster and more polished.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#97

Post by alangibson »

nimbius wrote: post #33

Pretty bold. A lot of people are saying this wont work, but speaking from my own experience, you'd be surprised what companies are amicable to when it comes to business. Im an engine mechanic by trade, and our shops handle bids for cash strapped local governments that outsource their motor pool maintenance. We do things like fire trucks and police cars, but we were working on a new regional idea as a "service center"…

You deserve massive credit for striking a blow against this madness. A great example of how working people have more power than they think if they're willing to risk dollars and cents for matters of right and wrong.

I say that fully realizing that not everyone is in the financial position where they can risk a fight with their employer. You can't expect everyone to be Ghandi.

Re: We are Google employees – Google must drop Dragonfly

#98

Post by patrickaljord »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #83
patrickaljord wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why single out China though? If Google had to stop doing business in any country that forces it to censor stuff, they would not be allowed anywhere, I think even the US forces them to filter out illegal gambling. Where does it stop?

You're right, maybe it shouldn't stop at China. Maybe google should commit to a policy of "protected free speech" on a wide range of political topics that it will never censor in any country (roughly in line with the first amendment). Great idea.

So you do support censorship, just not on political topics you agree with. Problem is, what's politically acceptable is highly subjective and varies greatly from country to country.
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