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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

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Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#161

Post by dnomad »

notyourwork wrote: post #154
dnomad wrote: post #140

Hilarious. I wasn't even done with the comment and it's already being rapidly downvoted. The total lack of intellectual integrity on HN is a sight to behold. It's really funny to watch the advocates of free speech and discussion rapidly downvote anything that contradicts their ideology.

I down voted not because I disagree but because your comment is a rant and doesn't offer any justification to your perspective. Hand waving and saying go talk to people doesn't prove your point, it makes you sound silly.

Sure. In a thread absolutely full of baseless rants my comment, which does provide an explanation and a link, was the one that jumped out you.

Though it is aways interesting to see people like you can rationalize your censorious actions. It's too bad HN doesn't require a text explanation for downvoting. It wouldn't decrease the hypocrisy but it would provide some further insight into the hypocrisy.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#162

Post by bitexploder »

skrebbel wrote: post #75
sjg007 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does kill its citizens. There's a few terrorists who were US citizens when they were killed by drone strikes. https://www.aclu.org/video/aclu-ccr-lawsuit-american-boy-kil...

Uh, and the death penalty.

That is a good point. I was thinking from a national security context. I know we have done it a few times, but I would like to believe those examples are isolated and extreme. Death penalty is another thing. It has so many problems with it and is a stain on our society in my opinion.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#163

Post by sailfast »

ryanmercer wrote: post #120
sailfast wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, you do have rights under existing regulation and in a court of law. Second, I’m really not sure what the lending landscape looks like if you don’t have these ratings. (Not saying better or worse, just not sure) I guess if you want to go tell every lender your life story and get your own individual interest rate and negotiate it all yourself then feel free? Numbers tend to free up liquidity because it creates a…

>First, you do have rights under existing regulation and in a court of law. Sure you can take a credit reporting agency to court, if you can afford a lawyer. You can take creditors to court, if you can afford a lawyer. You can file bankruptcy, on some debts, if you can afford a lawyer. But that bankruptcy follows you, it will flat out prevent you from employment in certain industries, it will prevent you 99% of the t…

I’ve heard small claims court is quite effective for redress as well for some of these things.

I agree that disputes are not easy, but you are not being denied rights by the state if your credit is bad which is the key difference here vs China.

If you think we need more reform of credit reporting (I would not disagree) then please contact your representative - that’s going to be the way to better regulate the dispute process and provide more recourse for citizens.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#164

Post by Juliate »

paraditedc wrote: post #153
skrebbel wrote: post #113

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human f…

I want to leave a comment to fellow Chinese citizens reading this thread. 1. "Don't waste your time with explanations. People only hear what they want to hear." 2. Don't get triggered by downvotes. They are just virtual numbers. They won't change the reality and facts. In the future, you will be able to come back and laugh at them. 3. It is not worth your time to explain the facts to them. Eventually people will face…

But please don't be too proud either.

China is a great country, you're a great people. As we all are. All humans. Qualities. Defaults. History.

You're not _that_ exceptional either.

We don't criticize China. Neither you.

We criticize the very idea of automation of social credit (thus of social relations, and individual freedom, and life), because our parents and grandparents had to experiment with it, and its consequences.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#165

Post by dnomad »

Juliate wrote: post #157
dnomad wrote: post #140

Hilarious. I wasn't even done with the comment and it's already being rapidly downvoted. The total lack of intellectual integrity on HN is a sight to behold. It's really funny to watch the advocates of free speech and discussion rapidly downvote anything that contradicts their ideology.

Praise for a totalitarian system is not acceptable, neither debatable. That's all. End of story. We kind of learned about that in Europe, the hard way, several times in XXth century (Italy, Germany, Russia, Soviet era invaded countries, Spain); some of us still having forgotten sadly. A social credit system that is used to expedite what is normally the responsibility of law, debate, judgement - and can then be used t…

This rhetorical maneuver, where you simply declare a system you don't understand to be totalitarian is no different from shouting Nazi at anything you don't agree with. Even a cursory analysis would show that the defining characteristic of totalitarianism, "absolute control over public and private life," doesn't apply to a system where people are completely free to travel anywhere whenever they want and the government invests hundreds of billions to encourage this free travel both within the country and abroad for its citizens.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#166

Post by sailfast »

ryanmercer wrote: post #115
sailfast wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction. As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

>Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, Yet they can prevent you from getting, or keeping, government jobs, prevent you from getting government contracts, prevent you from being able to purchase a home, prevent you from getting student loans... They aren't as bad but they're still tools of control.

Agreed. The link between credit agencies and the state here comes when government uses this data for clearances - typically to determine whether you might be amenable to a bribe.

All that said: typically if you’re asking for money it doesn’t come for free. You are submitting to a control. The fact that these scores are used in other arenas that are not related to finance is odd, but using your financial history as an indicator of future payment seems rational whether scores existed or not.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#167

Post by bitexploder »

xtian wrote: post #63
bitexploder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. I’m an Enlightenment since everyone deserves due process, but in a defending our national interests sense, that can never be the case and never has been. The parts of this that are comprehensible are either baseless or ill-informed assertions.

Argh, yeah. Phone typing. Try: In a post Enlightenment society, with everyone having certain unalienable rights, they deserve due process, but....

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#168

Post by rqs »

wozmirek wrote: post #128

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)? Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't bl…

> There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer.

Why wouldn't she?

If you've installed a nuclear bomb inside a person's home and tell that person the bomb will keep him safe, he will probably feel safer either. That is as long as you don't tell him about the fact that the detonator is controlled by a nasty monkey.

In China, you can only see the positive news about the system. Even when a journalist are trying to tell you the danger, on the surface the writing will eventually boil everything down to privacy protection, not the system.

So, don't be surprised.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#169

Post by sailfast »

ryanmercer wrote: post #130
dd36 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on public court records.

>Based on public court records. Which to this day aren't in some central database. Many states have counties where court records aren't even available online, that's a hell of a lot different than a centralized service that compiles, ranks and sells this information. It's in a credit reporting agency's best interest to find every last scrap of financial information about you so they can sell it. They don't care so mu…

Handling ID Theft is certainly an area that could use improvement. It’s a total pain in the ass and the fact that we’re basically paying K&R insurance each month to hedge this risk is crazy.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#170

Post by wozmirek »

paganel wrote: post #147
wozmirek wrote: post #128

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)? Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't bl…

"Feeling safer" has almost nothing to do with the Government watching you and it's almost entirely caused by the local social norms. Case in point and to partly answer your question: I have a woman colleague who has recently moved to London from Bucharest. She told me that while living in Bucharest she had no issue at all going back home alone at 2 or 3 in the morning, while in London she avoids going out all by hers…

Oh, I agree with you m8. I'm terrified with the surveillance stuff. I'd exchange then my "safe(r)" with "more sense of "safety"" (double quote deliberate).

Side note, that colleague originates from Bucharest? Just wondering if it's the same with my wife who feels unsafe in Berlin while she feels safer in Krakow.

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