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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

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Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#121

Post by dd36 »

ryanmercer wrote: post #115
sailfast wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction. As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

>Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, Yet they can prevent you from getting, or keeping, government jobs, prevent you from getting government contracts, prevent you from being able to purchase a home, prevent you from getting student loans... They aren't as bad but they're still tools of control.

Based on public court records.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#122

Post by PavlovsCat »

PavlovsCat wrote: post #76
creep wrote: post #38

This is obviously going to be an unpopular sentiment, but I am somewhat excited to observe the results, and I'm glad this is happening during my time on Earth. Yes, it is a horrible thought, but in many ways inevitable: if the tech exists, it will be used for both good and evil. Better that other societies can see the outcome sooner rather than later.

> We will arrive at a moment of sufficent self-alienation where we can contemplate our own destruction [as a species] as in a static spectacle. -- Walter Benjamin So we're repeating the Nazis now, gladly, because that's easier than learning from those who made all that effort, saw and went through so much atrocities and suffering, to to learn from that, and to relay that to us, to impress the importance of it on us?…

Oh, so just downvoting, just censoring, just like killing people, is the "argument". Every click without a word proves my point without diminishing a word I said. Giving totalitarianism an inch, rationalizing obedience to it for just one minute, has these results. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#123

Post by mavdi »

skrebbel wrote: post #113

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human f…

Historical context of a country matters a lot when judging the extent of a surveillance problem. Chinese are terrified of chaos and disorder, which has in the past has led to civil wars. For them the first priority is keeping the status quo.

Just take a look at the death toll of these wars: https://www.businessinsider.com/bloodiest-conflicts-in-chine...

25 Million casualties, and that's in the 17th century. Compare that to the absolute carnage of Syria, which has had less than half a million casualties.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#124

Post by Juliate »

creep wrote: post #38

This is obviously going to be an unpopular sentiment, but I am somewhat excited to observe the results, and I'm glad this is happening during my time on Earth. Yes, it is a horrible thought, but in many ways inevitable: if the tech exists, it will be used for both good and evil. Better that other societies can see the outcome sooner rather than later.

Fools.

We already know.

This is just modern technology applied to things already experimented in history, two of them being: East Germany, until 1989. And USSR before its downfall.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#125

Post by Kaveren »

ElBarto wrote: post #114
706f6f70 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

Chinese value personal freedom and do enjoy quite a lot of it, actually. In fact, I'd say that Chinese society allows more individuality and freedom than e.g. Japanese society.

I thought your name was familiar. You were the same person who implied that anyone who doesn't visit China isn't allowed to have an opinion, and blew off human rights abuses [0].

Why you insist on defending China with such rigor, I'm not sure.

No, the Chinese people do not have quite a lot of personal freedom. You have no right to freedom of speech in the sense anyone in a Western country does. You do not have the freedom to a transparent judicial process. You do not have the freedom not to be monitored by the government for being the wrong ethnic group.

I find that you in particular refuse to reply to the content of arguments, even when prodded.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18361217

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#126

Post by codedokode »

They say that the system helps to punish for violating traffic laws or evading taxes. But why police and courts cannot deal with this? Maybe because the real purpose is something else?

Also, in some countries there are similar systems, where your rights might be restricted without court's judgement or right for appeal. For example, in Russia, if you are suspected to be an extremist, you won't be able to withdraw money from your bank account. In other countries there are no-fly lists or potential terrorists lists which restrict people's rights without being able to defend themselves.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#128

Post by wozmirek »

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer.

This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)?

Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't blame them.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#129

Post by Kiro »

ultim8k wrote: post #29
ultim8k wrote: post #6

Why do people still live there (apart from those who cannot move)?

Disclaimer: I'm Greek and I've left my country. I'm visiting home all the time and yes I still love my friends and family. I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country.

Not sure you can compare the mess that Greece currently is with the prosperity of living in China (with the drawback of surrendering your privacy).

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#130

Post by ryanmercer »

dd36 wrote: post #121
ryanmercer wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, Yet they can prevent you from getting, or keeping, government jobs, prevent you from getting government contracts, prevent you from being able to purchase a home, prevent you from getting student loans... They aren't as bad but they're still tools of control.

Based on public court records.

>Based on public court records.

Which to this day aren't in some central database. Many states have counties where court records aren't even available online, that's a hell of a lot different than a centralized service that compiles, ranks and sells this information.

It's in a credit reporting agency's best interest to find every last scrap of financial information about you so they can sell it. They don't care so much about accuracy, they just care about growing that file so they have more to sell.

There's countless instances of people having their credit reports merged with others, containing erroneous information that pertains to a parent or child if they are Bob Smith I, Bob Smith II, Bob Smith III etc, then of course you are asked for your SSN for jobs/taxes/rental applications/in many cases it is on your driver's license which is handed over to numerous people for numerous reasons making it incredibly easy for someone to steal your identity and racking up debt, that they do not pay, on YOUR credit files which can take you years to get removed, all the while being on a centralized purchasable document that is intended to say how trustworthy you are as a person...

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