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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

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Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#151

Post by bitexploder »

robin_reala wrote: post #72
bitexploder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

I believe the US still has capital punishment, which absolutely is killing your own citizens.

Not secret. And a stain on our society in my opinion.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#152

Post by zimbatm »

wozmirek wrote: post #128

While I'm terrified by the system, I do remember watching a BBC (I think?) report on this. There was a young Chinese woman there, who felt safer. This made me think - what would women - and women, not the young men (me being one) choose when given a choice of the social credit system or being able to walk around the city safe(r)? Quite general question, yet I do believe they would choose the latter; and I wouldn't bl…

It's usually the choice that society as a large is making: do we prefer Freedom or Safety? For example after 9/11 American exchanged a lot of freedom for more safety. It's a choice we all have to make.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#153

Post by paraditedc »

skrebbel wrote: post #113

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem. So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK? George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human f…

I want to leave a comment to fellow Chinese citizens reading this thread.

1. "Don't waste your time with explanations. People only hear what they want to hear."

2. Don't get triggered by downvotes. They are just virtual numbers. They won't change the reality and facts. In the future, you will be able to come back and laugh at them.

3. It is not worth your time to explain the facts to them. Eventually people will face the reality no matter how hard media paints it. Just give it some time for the world to sort itself out.

Edit: If you really want to comment, try your best to be civil and substantial. I know it is hard with all the emotions, but not impossible.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#154

Post by notyourwork »

dnomad wrote: post #140

Hilarious. I wasn't even done with the comment and it's already being rapidly downvoted. The total lack of intellectual integrity on HN is a sight to behold. It's really funny to watch the advocates of free speech and discussion rapidly downvote anything that contradicts their ideology.

I down voted not because I disagree but because your comment is a rant and doesn't offer any justification to your perspective. Hand waving and saying go talk to people doesn't prove your point, it makes you sound silly.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#155

Post by bitexploder »

coldtea wrote: post #80
bitexploder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> Secret kill lists are for terrorits Or so they say. In any case, it's a single country deciding, and that any some ad hoc committee, without a public due process, and targeting people residing on sovereign states. And of course often killing 10-20 nearby people as well, up to 130 for a strike on a wedding: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yemen-security/death-toll...

Yes, there are examples like this. Collateral damage will happen in war. It is tragic and always will be, and I say that with all sincerity. National security has always been thus and always will be so until there is no such thing as a nation.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#156

Post by refurb »

thatfrenchguy wrote: post #101
bitexploder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. If you’re rich.

I know plenty of poor people with good credit scores. So you’re statement isn’t true at all.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#157

Post by Juliate »

dnomad wrote: post #140

Hilarious. I wasn't even done with the comment and it's already being rapidly downvoted. The total lack of intellectual integrity on HN is a sight to behold. It's really funny to watch the advocates of free speech and discussion rapidly downvote anything that contradicts their ideology.

Praise for a totalitarian system is not acceptable, neither debatable. That's all. End of story.

We kind of learned about that in Europe, the hard way, several times in XXth century (Italy, Germany, Russia, Soviet era invaded countries, Spain); some of us still having forgotten sadly.

A social credit system that is used to expedite what is normally the responsibility of law, debate, judgement - and can then be used to impose arbitrarial rules from the state (don't be fooled about that) _is_ totalitarian per nature. It is even more that because it relies on automation.

Don't use exceptionalism or pride to defend or justify such a system.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#158

Post by n4r9 »

skrebbel wrote: post #98
706f6f70 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

> orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice I don't know, most Chinese people I've met are at least as selfish as the average Westerner, often more (and let's not even begin about the stereotypical "I don't care about anything" 60 year old Chinese tourist). I'm no expert, but while surely many Chinese rulers have emphasized these values, I'm not convinced that the population ever cared much about the…

To be fair, there's often a significant contrast between the way someone behaves and the societal values they espouse. In some cases they almost seem to be anti-correlated.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#159

Post by bitexploder »

will_brown wrote: post #107
bitexploder wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

>Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens. What we do know is the Us has made multiple drone strikes targeting a US citizen and ultimately killed a US citizen. Two you can’t know how many other citizens are on the kill list, that is the nature of secret kills lists. Three we don’t even know the standard the government uses to label someone a terrorist (us citizen or not) for purposes of the…

Except credit rating isn’t about hierarchy. It is two things (1) pay bills on time — service debt reliably (2) negotiate with creditors when you can’t. People get bad credit because they acquire debt and then fail to service it and think ignoring creditors is the way to go. You can still smoke cigarettes and buy all the video games you want. Just pay your bills.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#160

Post by will_brown »

lifeformed wrote: post #137
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I can't believe people keep equating these two systems. While there are similarities, one is a financial rating and the other is a social rating. The credit system has a lot of issues but it just does what it says on the tin, measuring the same credit card metrics, and had been around for a while without much change. The social rating system seeps into every aspect of a person's life and had no limits for expansion.…

>I can't believe people keep equating these two systems.

You want to work here? We are going to have to check your credit! Which system is it?

You’re born poor and apply for your first job, a nice government job with nice government benefits, but can’t get it because you don’t have any credit established. Hell youre poor, forget credit you can’t even open a bank account, go apply for a minimum wage job, then head to the check cashing/cash advance store. Look at social mobility in this country, pretty sure it’s the lowest of all first world economies, it’s pretty dystopian.

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