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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

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Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#101

Post by thatfrenchguy »

bitexploder wrote: post #46
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

> The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit.

If you’re rich.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#102

Post by glenneroo »

iagooar wrote: post #19
garyclarke27 wrote: post #3

Horrific predicted tech enabled dystopia now in China. Where next? what if airlines taxis and hotels shared ratings, would the west be so different? I hate Uber Airbnb pestering me for a rating every trip and the fact that I am rated as well. I don’t know or care what my rating is, but my wife does, she was upset recently by an Airbnb landlord in Belgrade, she gave us a bad rating because we had not deep cleaned the…

I thought Airbnb charges an extra for the final cleaning?

They do, however most of my recent Airbnbs rentals have started requesting (via attached info email and/or the info-book on premises) to wash the dishes, change/take off the bedding sheets and in a couple cases, to wipe specific areas down. It feels like renters are continually pushing the boundaries of what they can ask of guests/tenants.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#103

Post by sailfast »

coldtea wrote: post #81
sailfast wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction. As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

> Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government So there's also no democratic control on them?

There is always the ability to control private enterprise when enough of a consensus is established. In this case, credit reporting is regulated by the Fair Credit Reporting Act which provides a number of guidelines as well as a dispute process, access to your report for free, etc. I would argue that is democratic control to an extent that the people’s representatives have chosen to regulate the industry to that extent, yes.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#105

Post by PavlovsCat »

TangoTrotFox wrote: post #67
ultim8k wrote: post #6

Why do people still live there (apart from those who cannot move)?

You've gotta look at things in perspective. When you live in China what you get is basically 0 crime, a very rapidly developing economy with huge potential for all sorts of entrepreneurship, extremely cheap cost of living with heavy subsidies for costs like utilities, and a generally pretty peaceful and pleasant place. Biggest practical problem is fake or knockoff everything from condoms to eggs. Yip fake eggs are re…

> I have no idea whether the Chinese system of government is a good idea or an idea that will lead to the implosion of their society.

So if it doesn't implode, that makes it a good idea?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#106

Post by lumber-pail »

Think of the upside if your status followed you everywhere you went, and instead of relying on human decency you could expect treatment in proportion to your behavior.

Something like this will inevitably arrive in the West due to human desire for status. Not much different from a thousand little decisions you make every day getting dressed and walking down the street that show the world who you are and what your values are. Now conveniently bundled and accessible to all.

Our grandchildren will wonder how we did business online without it.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#107

Post by will_brown »

bitexploder wrote: post #46
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

>Secret kill lists are for terrorits. We don’t kill our own citizens.

What we do know is the Us has made multiple drone strikes targeting a US citizen and ultimately killed a US citizen.

Two you can’t know how many other citizens are on the kill list, that is the nature of secret kills lists.

Three we don’t even know the standard the government uses to label someone a terrorist (us citizen or not) for purposes of the kill list, because the US Supreme Court said we aren’t entitled to know.

And as to the credit...as I said the majority have good credit and love to think they earned that credit and like the permenant underclass of people who have bad credit can’t get jobs, housing, etc... Trust me the majority of people in China will have good social credit and say the same things as you...it’s easy to have good social credit, it’s not dystopian it’s helpful. History suggests people have a great love for societal hierarchies.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#108

Post by gexla »

jld89 wrote: post #91
gexla wrote: post #43

Wow, the top thing on my mind this morning was that the CIA was able to listen in on a phone call from the Saudi head of state. Now this. I have already been thinking about the possible necessity of a decentralized personas. If an employer wants to see my office persona, then I don't want those people to see my gaming persona. No reason to connect these things to a central identity. Decentralized personas are natural…

Valenzuela? Really?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-16/chinese-tech-giant-zt...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#109

Post by justinclift »

C1sc0cat wrote: post #42
richardknop wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of western expats live in China because they have economic opportunities they don’t have access to in their home countries. Says something about the state of western world when so many young people go to China to climb the career ladder. Social mobility in western countries is almost non existent.

Ah the new FILTH aka Failed in London, Try Hong Kong

Well, the UK itself seems to be "Failing in London" these days. ;)

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#110

Post by sailfast »

lentil_soup wrote: post #84
sailfast wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction. As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

Since they're not controlled by the government then they are controlled by the market, as in, private companies. Not sure that's better, you could argue with a government controlled one you still have "some" rights and due process, with a private one there's not much you can do if they decide to give you a bad rating. I rather have none, to be honest.

First, you do have rights under existing regulation and in a court of law.

Second, I’m really not sure what the lending landscape looks like if you don’t have these ratings. (Not saying better or worse, just not sure) I guess if you want to go tell every lender your life story and get your own individual interest rate and negotiate it all yourself then feel free? Numbers tend to free up liquidity because it creates a relatively well understood framework that banks can hedge and lend on. This enables speed as well as more lending.

I’m not a huge fan of the consolidation of ratings agencies but I do like the speed and available credit these scores enable.

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