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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

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Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#81

Post by coldtea »

sailfast wrote: post #49
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction. As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

>Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government

So there's also no democratic control on them?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#82

Post by coldtea »

rubyfan wrote: post #51
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

The scale, scope and logical extent of these systems are not even comparable.

Yes, for one, one exists for decades, the other is just on paper atm...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#83

Post by beaconstudios »

jobigoud wrote: post #47
beaconstudios wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably because the regime doesn't actively affect most people's lives much more than a regular government. It's just people who speak out or act out that get oppressed. This is just me assuming, but is guess that China is OK for quiet, well behaved unquestioning citizens.

The social credit score goes way beyond speaking out. It touches all the minor infractions, speeding tickets, jaywalking, not paying your rent or other debt on time, etc.

This has only just been implemented though, so we've yet to see the reaction of the populace.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#84

Post by lentil_soup »

sailfast wrote: post #49
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction. As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

Since they're not controlled by the government then they are controlled by the market, as in, private companies. Not sure that's better, you could argue with a government controlled one you still have "some" rights and due process, with a private one there's not much you can do if they decide to give you a bad rating. I rather have none, to be honest.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#85

Post by gadders »

kylnew wrote: post #5

> People are awarded credit points for activities such as undertaking volunteer work and giving blood donations while those who violate traffic laws and charge “under-the-table” fees are punished. > Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online. This reminds me a lot of that Black Mirror episode where everyone upvotes and downvotes each oth…

"Fake News" i.e. anything that mentions Tibet, Tiannamen Square, selling Falung Gong organs for transplantation etc.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#86

Post by [deleted] »

cm2187 wrote: post #73

The way I understand this social credit system, it is trying to emulate at a scale of a one billion population the social control you had in a small XVIII century village. Basically what forces you to behave is not so much the law than the fear of contempt from your peers, which could impact every aspect of your life. And I can't help thinking that while it may be efficient at forcing people to not behave like a jerk…

[deleted]

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#87

Post by coldtea »

baybal2 wrote: post #7
garyclarke27 wrote: post #3

Horrific predicted tech enabled dystopia now in China. Where next? what if airlines taxis and hotels shared ratings, would the west be so different? I hate Uber Airbnb pestering me for a rating every trip and the fact that I am rated as well. I don’t know or care what my rating is, but my wife does, she was upset recently by an Airbnb landlord in Belgrade, she gave us a bad rating because we had not deep cleaned the…

Well, nonpersonhood is nothing new to China. Tenth of millions of people in China can't even get an ID because they don't have birth certificates, and without that you can't legally have a bank account, have a phone number, receive education, receive medical care, travel, own property, have family or even immigrate away from China. And the West has nevertheless kept quiet for long 28 years.

You make it sound like something Chinese government purposefully did, when in fact, those people were simply never registered by their parents -- to avoid the fee for having a child above quota.

>The group was never officially registered on the country’s household registration record system, known as hukou, which is closely linked to a person’s legal identity. That means they didn’t officially exist—until recently. On Friday (March 24), China’s Ministry of Public Security, the government department in charge of hukou registrations, announced that they had helped register the 14 million.

https://qz.com/941240/china-keeps-finding-millions-of-people...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#88

Post by Shivetya »

kylnew wrote: post #5

> People are awarded credit points for activities such as undertaking volunteer work and giving blood donations while those who violate traffic laws and charge “under-the-table” fees are punished. > Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online. This reminds me a lot of that Black Mirror episode where everyone upvotes and downvotes each oth…

soon China will go straight to Larry Niven's The Jigsaw Man [1] where sentences for crimes include forced donation of all organs. this includes traffic offenses and the like.

On a different tact, the US is just as guilty of this with the over the top of punishment of those convicted of sex crimes where you can be publicly embarrassed by law enforcement after you served your time. Where you can be told where you can live and not live or even go. Considering the power it gives over one group of people it is not hard to see how it will expand to other crimes

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jigsaw_Man

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#89

Post by mikejb »

Tepix wrote: post #25
mikejb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others ask themselves the same about the US, or Germany, or Russia. It's easy to paint a picture that makes one wonder why anyone would ever stay there. And the answer to why is revealed when you peek behind the canvas that portrays these horrible places.

Germany? It has the best reputation of all countries in the world right now ( https://www.lonelyplanet.com/news/2017/11/22/germany-best-re... ).

Yes, and I understand why - I love living there; but there's also (luckily not many) people who think the streets are filled with beating, raping illegal immigrants who were invited by politicians to live off welfare paid by the hard working citizen.

If we don't have first hand experiences, we rely on second hand information to get a picture of a situation. And depending on where we get the information from (i.e. which media we consume), it may deviate from reality, or suggest a situation that doesn't reflect reality because it focuses on few, individual aspects or events.

So every time I don't understand why people behave the way they do, I have to question my understanding of the situation before I can question the people's behavior.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#90

Post by [deleted] »

nnq wrote: post #57
ultim8k wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disclaimer: I'm Greek and I've left my country. I'm visiting home all the time and yes I still love my friends and family. I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country.

> I love the place and the lifestyle but I don't give a crap for the country This kind of attitude is why some countries' economies and social systems turn to crap, ya know...

[deleted]
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