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China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

independent.co.uk

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Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#111

Post by Just_Smith »

johnchristopher wrote: post #35
kylnew wrote: post #5

> People are awarded credit points for activities such as undertaking volunteer work and giving blood donations while those who violate traffic laws and charge “under-the-table” fees are punished. > Other infractions reportedly include smoking in non-smoking zones, buying too many video games and posting fake news online. This reminds me a lot of that Black Mirror episode where everyone upvotes and downvotes each oth…

That black mirror system is p2p when China's system is centralized. I believe the black mirror system is worse.

Just curious - why do you think a centralized system would be superior to a decentralized system? That would allow the norm to be dictated by the central authority, and not through public consensus.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#112

Post by paraditedc »

Tepix wrote: post #25
mikejb wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others ask themselves the same about the US, or Germany, or Russia. It's easy to paint a picture that makes one wonder why anyone would ever stay there. And the answer to why is revealed when you peek behind the canvas that portrays these horrible places.

Germany? It has the best reputation of all countries in the world right now ( https://www.lonelyplanet.com/news/2017/11/22/germany-best-re... ).

> right now

> 22 November 2017

Also: https://www.google.com.sg/search?q=germany&source=lnms&tbm=n...

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#113

Post by skrebbel »

I'm disgusted by the comments in this thread that go "culture!", "tradition!", "philosophy!" to explain why this really isn't that much of a problem.

So because Chinese rulers have oppressed and mistreated their people for so long that their methods have become ingrained in the national psyche, it's somehow more OK?

George Orwell predicted that "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever". He thought he was making a dystopian prediction, a warning of sorts, but he could've just as easily called it a history lesson about China.

Sure, many other places, most places in fact, have horrible histories, with evil rulers vastly outnumbering the even somewhat good ones, but China is unique in that it's been all about oppressing and abusing the population as heavily as possible, without pause, ever since the first emperors gave the country its foreign name.

A non-stop tradition of oppression doesn't somehow make new oppression less bad.

NOTE: Nothing against the Chinese culture or people. I'm extremely fond of lots of Chinese things, not in the least Chinese humor for which I have a particularly soft spot. I love working with Chinese people, I love meeting Chinese people. It makes me sad that such a wonderful place and a wonderful culture can also have such a horrible tradition of oppression.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#114

Post by ElBarto »

706f6f70 wrote: post #78
ultim8k wrote: post #6

Why do people still live there (apart from those who cannot move)?

Because not all societies enshrine individual freedom as their primary value. China has historically valued orderliness, collective well-being, and personal sacrifice. This sucks from a Western perspective, but it also means that a great many of the problems the West faces will never manifest in China. There are very few absolute wrongs in the world and it's not clear that this would be one of them.

Chinese value personal freedom and do enjoy quite a lot of it, actually. In fact, I'd say that Chinese society allows more individuality and freedom than e.g. Japanese society.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#115

Post by ryanmercer »

sailfast wrote: post #49
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction. As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

>Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government,

Yet they can prevent you from getting, or keeping, government jobs, prevent you from getting government contracts, prevent you from being able to purchase a home, prevent you from getting student loans...

They aren't as bad but they're still tools of control.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#116

Post by lightedman »

bitexploder wrote: post #46
will_brown wrote: post #33

Well here in the US we have an actual credit system in place. And since basic necessities are often dependent on credit rating (employment; housing purchaes ; rentals; vehicle financing/lease) it’s pretty dystopian. Not to mention for nearly 20 years now we have had secret no fly lists (no due process to get on or off) and even secret kill lists (no due process), I think it’s just another way to skin the cat, and may…

I don’t think there is much equivalency here. The credit system is a pain, but it is also very simple to have good credit. Anyone, even someone with little money can have good credit. Even if you have medical debt you can maintain your credit rating. People may not know how to do it, but it isn’t too hard. The privacy aspects of it suck, but it just isn’t that dystopian and it’s usage is relatively narrow in society.…

"We don’t kill our own citizens."

Never heard of the MOVE Row House bombing where Philadelphia police literally helicopter-bombed the place and killed 5 children? Waco Massacre where the FBI killed over 20 children?

Where have you been living? Under a rock?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#117

Post by dd36 »

coldtea wrote: post #81
sailfast wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government, and you have recourse if your rating is hit for no reason. Comparing the two systems together makes some sense as there are material impacts in both cases, but to say credit ratings are even close to this is to miss a pretty critical distinction. As for no-fly: agreed that is a stain on our democracy.

> Credit ratings in the United States are not controlled by the government So there's also no democratic control on them?

Fair Credit Reporting Act.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#118

Post by Kaveren »

China is approaching a nightmarish dystopian society, if it hasn't reached that already.

I'm glad I live in a country where I can spend however much money I feel like on video games without being targeted by an oppressive government.

You just have to love a country where you can be murdered by the government for selling marijuana, yet if you abstain from alcohol for religious reasons you are an enemy of the state and must be turned into authorities.

Authoritarianism of all forms must be opposed worldwide. Who is to say the West won't be subjugated to such systems a couple decades from now, if we don't stand up for freedoms with vigor?

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#119

Post by omegabravo »

glenneroo wrote: post #102
iagooar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Airbnb charges an extra for the final cleaning?

They do, however most of my recent Airbnbs rentals have started requesting (via attached info email and/or the info-book on premises) to wash the dishes, change/take off the bedding sheets and in a couple cases, to wipe specific areas down. It feels like renters are continually pushing the boundaries of what they can ask of guests/tenants.

How interesting, I just assumed everyone cleaned up after themselves. I always do the dishes and tidy any mess I may have left. I'll gladly remove the bedding if requested, that only takes a few seconds.

Perhaps it's a cultural thing.

Re: China blacklists millions from booking flights as 'social credit' introduced

#120

Post by ryanmercer »

sailfast wrote: post #110
lentil_soup wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since they're not controlled by the government then they are controlled by the market, as in, private companies. Not sure that's better, you could argue with a government controlled one you still have "some" rights and due process, with a private one there's not much you can do if they decide to give you a bad rating. I rather have none, to be honest.

First, you do have rights under existing regulation and in a court of law. Second, I’m really not sure what the lending landscape looks like if you don’t have these ratings. (Not saying better or worse, just not sure) I guess if you want to go tell every lender your life story and get your own individual interest rate and negotiate it all yourself then feel free? Numbers tend to free up liquidity because it creates a…

>First, you do have rights under existing regulation and in a court of law.

Sure you can take a credit reporting agency to court, if you can afford a lawyer.

You can take creditors to court, if you can afford a lawyer.

You can file bankruptcy, on some debts, if you can afford a lawyer. But that bankruptcy follows you, it will flat out prevent you from employment in certain industries, it will prevent you 99% of the time from any job that requires a security clearance for the rest of your life, it will severely hinder your ability to have credit in the future.

Sure, you can dispute incorrect things on your credit report... if you know how. Then of course, all a creditor has to do is, within a few months, say 'yes that information is correct' and the dispute rules in their favor.

Sure, if someone steals your identity and takes out some lines of credit you can attempt to undo that damage but it could take years (if ever) to fix your credit report while employers and would-be-creditors see you as someone that defaulted on debt, even though you had nothing to do with it, and treat you as someone irresponsible and unreliable.

All of this while the credit agencies are SELLING this report to anyone that wants it, effectively telling the buyers how allegedly trustworthy and responsible you are.

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