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‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#91

Post by SCHiM »

wesleytodd wrote: post #46

Personal anecdote: I was contacted by a facebook recruiter a few years ago. I started the process and also started thinking about if I would like working there. I realized that I disagree strongly with the product, its effects on society, culture and politics. But more importantly I realized I hadn't used the product in like 3 years. I just said no thanks before even finishing the "take home" exercise. At the time I…

That's a weird thing to say about oneself. Do you really consider yourself to be "less ethical" or have you internalized "mainstream" ethics as "good", and found that that's not what _you_ think is ethical/good behavior?

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#92

Post by jedberg »

Jonanin wrote: post #27

I have concerns about Facebook just like everyone else, but I'd also like to point out that the New York Times is not repeatedly publishing articles criticizing FB simply because of their superior moral stance. They are doing it because FB took away a lot of revenue from publishers like them, and they are very, very angry about it.

That's not how real journalism works. The journalists are separated from the business side. Good publications go as far as prohibiting their editors from talking to anyone who deals with revenue.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#93

Post by Agathos »

steelframe wrote: post #61
nradov wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What should the age limit be for publishing snarky comments?

The same age that rental car companies have converged on for "enough" judgement to have developed. Personally, I was ridiculously vulnerable to influence by social groups between the ages of 16 and 25. So much so, that I impulsively joined the Mormon church and threw two years away trying to convert other people to Mormonism. I also wrote an anti-Microsoft rant in a newspaper editorial, since I was so caught up in th…

So what? I'm sure Microsoft is happy they could win over a critic like that.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#94

Post by Barrin92 »

gpm wrote: post #28
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

My theory is that pay and working conditions at Facebook are as good as they are precisely because of people feeling like this. They are having to pay a premium to attract engineers as a result of the moral opposition.

Facebook also has a comparatively small number of employees compared to the other big players and as a result significantly more net income / per employee.

https://www.recode.net/2017/8/4/16090758/facebook-google-pro...

Income per employee (as of 2017 according to the article) is about three times as high as it is for Microsoft.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#95

Post by raarts »

mattmar96 wrote: post #77
Animats wrote: post #49

...the head of the start-up incubator and investment firm, Y Combinator, gave opening remarks, recommending that young people avoid jobs in big tech. “You get to program your life on a totally different scale.... The worst thing that can happen to you is you get a job at Google.” He called those jobs “$100,000 a year welfare” — meaning, he said, that workers can get tethered to the paycheck and avoid taking risks. Wh…

Equity

If that's your goal, start your own company.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#96

Post by AlexandrB »

ralusek wrote: post #30
gpm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that pay and working conditions at Facebook are as good as they are precisely because of people feeling like this. They are having to pay a premium to attract engineers as a result of the moral opposition.

It's very similar to when you hear people say "I love my job but they don't pay a living wage!" It's because you love your job, you have to pay for that.

This kind of post-facto justification for poor working conditions or wages needs a name, so it can be dismissed out of hand. It seems to assume that the market is “fair” and getting poor pay must be justified by some other factor about the job.

In reality, there are plenty of jobs that have garbage pay and suck. As well as jobs that are both lucrative and “easy”. Consider the average CEO: not the exceptional visionaries but the type that loses the shareholders money for years and then exits on a golden parachute. These jobs are hard only in the sense that you have to know the right people, (being born to the right people helps) to even be considered.

On the other side of the ledger, you have immigrants with medical degrees, who are driving cabs for minimum wage (or now, Uber, for below minimum wage).

The free market is not fair, and it is not a meritocracy. It is subject to all the same tribal impulses and inequalities that have persisted in humans throughout history. In western societies, no job should pay less than a living wage, no matter how enjoyable it is. That’s just an excuse for exploitation.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#97

Post by dionidium »

leroy_masochist wrote: post #79
ggggtez wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh please. "19-year-old kids" can sign their life away to the military. They can vote in elections. To suggest that we shouldn't allow people who are adults by every meaning of the word, voice their opinions publicly and attributed to themselves is ludicrous.

It's not an issue of human rights but rather of journalistic ethics. See my other comments on this thread.

It's not unethical to accurately quote 19 year olds. This is an eccentric position you've staked out.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#98

Post by leroy_masochist »

Agathos wrote: post #78
leroy_masochist wrote: post #23

Allowing 19-year-old kids to have their name and photo published in the newspaper of record in an article that quotes their snarky comments about how they're not sure if they'd deign to work for any given company is journalistic malpractice. I don't blame the kids. They're young and naturally earnest, and are marinating in an environment where performative wokeness results in positive social reinforcement. They don't…

Is it "wokeness" or just ambition? When I was 19 I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I'm pretty sure being yet another cog in a 30,000-employee machine was not high on the list.

My intended point with regard to wokeness was that college is a place where there is limited downside to screaming your carefully considered, morally pure opinions from the rooftops. People accultured to that kind of environment often don't understand how people outside the college bubble will interpret their comments.

Re: ‘I Don’t Really Want to Work for Facebook.’ Say Some Computer Science Students

#99

Post by eesmith »

FilterSweep wrote: post #18
yaacov wrote: post #9

> Ms. Brown said a lot of students criticize Facebook and talk about how they would not work there, but ultimately join. “Everyone cares about ethics in tech before they get a contract,” she said. This describes my what I've observed perfectly. There are very few companies that make new grad offers comparable to Facebook's, and career advancement opportunities and working conditions at Facebook tend to be better than…

And I don’t blame them. Developers are largely undercompensated for the utility they provide for firms, both across companies and within (compared to other roles). In the Bay, it’s the difference between living comfortably+saving for their future and just making ends meet. It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb.

> It’s a bit like blaming the scientists of the Manhattan Project for dropping the atomic bomb.

Consider Joseph Rotblat. He worked on the Manhattan Project because believed that it was needed as a deterrent against a German nuclear weapon. After he learned that Germany had given up on the bomb, he left the Manhattan Project - the only one to do so - and felt betrayed by its use in Japan.

"Rotblat believed that scientists should always be concerned with the ethical consequences of their work.[39] He became one of the most prominent critics of the nuclear arms race ... Rotblat shared, with the Pugwash Conferences, the 1995 Nobel Peace Prize for efforts toward nuclear disarmament." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Rotblat .

There's a movie about him, "The Strangest Dream", at https://www.nfb.ca/film/strangest_dream/ .

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