Germany plans €3B in AI investments • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#81

Post by odiroot » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #32

rsp1984 wrote: post #25

The problem is not a lack of funds. The problem is bureaucracy and a lack of startup infrastructure. My feeling is that the people in charge have absolutely no effing clue about how to most efficiently deploy this money so they will do what sounds good on paper but will have 0 effect in reality. If it goes how it usually goes the largest part of this money will likely to to universities and other research institution…

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

Let me compare with my "list" over nearly 5 years working here:

1. `Extremely` is an overstatement but yes.

2. Yep.

3. Yep, very common. Big egos everywhere.

4. Not really, never experienced myself.

5. That's hit and miss.

6. Yep, super common.

Throw enormous tax burden on top of that (you don't really see your taxes working for you in this city).

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#82

Post by Matthias247 » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #71

obstbraende wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like a degenerate organisation. But if we're sharing anecdata: My pay in this Berlin startup is very decent, I have respectable equity and it's a friendly & rational environment. I'm scared of US startup work culture, rather.

I remember one Deep Learning startup in Berlin ran by ex-Googlers that was offering 85k salary, minuscule equity, and expected a Stanford top-graduate with interview that had to demonstrate complete mastery of all Stanford Deep Learning courses and probabilistic graphical models... I hope it's not your employer, you are likely undervaluing yourself 10x otherwise.

For a graduate that would be a huge salary in germany. Most engineers with 10years of experience won't receive that. Therefore having high expectations around those candidates seems right.

(That still does't mean I find the salary situation for engineers great in germany. Just that it seems to fit into the general scheme)

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#83

Post by odiroot » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

StreamBright wrote: post #79

bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

Sorry but why Berlin? Munich has several very successful startups and excellent engineering community with serious investors and companies who can be either clients or potential purchasers of these startups. Why do you chose Berlin as a representative of German startup scene? I know they had some success but there is so much more in Germany. goo.gl/uPLVMy https://www.eu-startups.com/tag/munich/

Do you think that Munich has generally better culture in this industry? I don't even mean startups, just asking in general.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#84

Post by reacharavindh » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:33 PM UTC

rurban wrote: post #62

reacharavindh wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about the rest of the points, but I looked into several job opportunities at Berlin, and was shocked by how low their offered salaries were. That was the end of my interest in looking for jobs at Berlin... I live in Denmark currently, and can attest that to some extent, salaries cannot be compared because of different social structures & expenses. Getting paid 50% of what I used to make in the US did not m…

It's not 50%, it's more like 30%. German salaries are totally anti-engineering and pro-management.

Well, I was saying 50% referring to my current pay in Denmark, not that of Germany. In Germany, I was offered lower than in Denmark, which would have been, like you said - 30 ish %.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#85

Post by StreamBright » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:34 PM UTC

zeroname wrote: post #68

fruffy wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. There is also a maximum amount of hours you are technically allowed to work on a day, which is ten. Sixty hours also is the absolute weekly maximum with 48 hours being the regular maximum. However, if you do not report these hours no one will ever know.

> Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. I can't find any evidence that it does. It seems to be common practice: https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/342740-unpaid-ove... If you receive a salary, you don't get paid by the hour. If your contract says you don't have a right for compensation (monetary or otherwise) for extra hours, then you don't. Negotiating such terms is up to the employee (or the…

Drug trade is a common practice yet it is illegal. My employers would not risk to be caught and punished for unpaid overtime or more than 10 hours / day work on average. It was explicitly told us that we cannot work more than 8 hours on average and everybody is pretty serious about that. Not sure what industry or what companies are you talking about and referring to it as common practice.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#86

Post by DanielleMolloy » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:36 PM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #81

bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

Let me compare with my "list" over nearly 5 years working here: 1. `Extremely` is an overstatement but yes. 2. Yep. 3. Yep, very common. Big egos everywhere. 4. Not really, never experienced myself. 5. That's hit and miss. 6. Yep, super common. Throw enormous tax burden on top of that (you don't really see your taxes working for you in this city).

> (you don't really see your taxes working for you in this city).

Or the tax-paid are even actively slowing down your work and success due to difficulties and mental barriers about understanding technology and its culture, ref. #GoogleCampus.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#87

Post by StreamBright » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:37 PM UTC

choot wrote: post #64

bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

I worked for a German startup, whenever i asked for a raise they threatened to import labor from Romania or Poland to replace me.

So you got fooled. It is a free market, supply and demand. If you are outstanding you can earn more. If you are mediocre you can be more easily replaced. I would quit on the spot if any company would threat me like that. I would just tell them "Please do" and walk out from meeting, getting back to my computer to print out my resignation.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#88

Post by hobofan » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:40 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #74

hobofan wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While that's a accurate generalization of Berlin startups, from what I can tell it's pretty much the same for startups anywhere (maybe with the exception of salary in contrast to SF, but the cost of living is absurd in comparision).

It's different if you have a shot at being rich in the Bay Area via a successful exit as an early employee, or if you, as in case of Berlin, get a laughable equity and instead are motivated by the "coolness" of startups and Berlin being a city for "hipsters", trading your peak effort/prime years for literally nothing. Of course, start up is a lottery in SF as well, but the potential wins are orders of magnitude highe…

I value equity at 0, so that's why might be seeing them as not that different.

If you are a bit of a startup veteran you can also make good bank at German startups, probably even more so if you come from SF. There are sadly (but also understandably) few software engineers that stay in the startup ecosystem for long, and those that do can be quite valued. That combined with the low cost of living, actually makes it very realistic to build up some wealth and achieve financial independence, no startup equity lottery needed. From everything I read on HN, that looks very different in SF.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#89

Post by rmetzler » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:42 PM UTC

cauldron wrote: post #15

I don't know how this works in Germany, but in China, it usually goes this way: doesn't matter if you are good at or even know it (officials won't care), just scour the internet and produce a PPT, pull some strings to arrange a fancy dinner with relevant local officials, deal done, once you got the money hire someone to do a demo, profit. One woman bragging about this was vacationing on the Palm Jumeirah island in UA…

I'm German and don't think there are fancy dinners needed, before you get the funding money. It's much more bureaucracy. It can be so much overhead in administrative work that companies which try to find a stable business model may not want to invest into getting research funds and other companies may have specialized in applying and getting research funding.

From what I hear it's not unusual to use the money for paying people who work on other topics, produce a little output and write in the report "we did some research, but more research is needed..."

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#90

Post by Matthias247 » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

orbifold wrote: post #26

mrdodge wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting thought. Does German really have a prayer in this space? Making breakthroughs in this space isn't something just any trained student can do. The best all work for American tech companies... German co's don't believe in paying well. This can be extended to most European nations.

Those are really ignorant statements. Bosch, Siemens, BMW etc. definitely pay well and employ plenty of talented people.

The pay well compared to other german companies. However not compared to US/FAANG companies.

As a reference, most of those companies will pay engineers according to the IG Metall Tarif, which can e.g. be found there: https://www.igmetall.de/docs_MuE_ERA_Entgelte_Juni2018_78d3e...

This is per month, and there's 13.26 monthly salaries per year.

Engineers will typically not receive the highest lines which are reserved for managers, but something below (e.g. EG15 in Baden-Württemberg).

There are some company specific and performance bonuses on top of that, which might be up to 30%, but are typically far less (and often not performance but age-based). In the end things top out far below 100kEur for most engineers there, with no chances to get higher without moving into people management.

I worked at one of those companies (not the listed ones, but a similar one) for a couple of years, and found these things pretty frustrating after a few years.