Germany plans €3B in AI investments • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#41

Post by zeroname » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:02 PM UTC

SilasX wrote: post #35

bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

>expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability Doesn't that conflict with German labor law? Edit: Definitely agree about credentialism ("people that are better than anyone else"). Germany takes that to the extreme. Career change in your 30s? Not possible.

> Doesn't that conflict with German labor law?

I doubt it, Germans rank high in terms of unpaid overtime.

https://www.dw.com/en/unpaid-overtime-a-common-phenomenon-in...

They also have some of the lowest wages combined with the rather high social security expenses.

https://www.learngermanonline.org/salaries-and-living-costs-...

Given that, I think Germany doesn't deserve its good reputation.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#42

Post by zeroname » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:04 PM UTC

baxtr wrote: post #33

I have read the basis of this provided in (1). Unfortunately, like many other “strategies”, this so called AI strategy is completely missing a good (root cause) analysis. It jumps to conclusions and “activity areas”. With no good analysis, there can’t be a good strategy (2). This money won’t change anything. (1) https://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/Content/DE/Downloads/... (2) https://www.amazon.com/Good-Strategy-B…

At least it's not blockchain.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#43

Post by friedsdeirf » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:04 PM UTC

A lot of you are dissing German industry --- because they don't have FAANGs or other unicorns?

They still have a large high-tech industrial base and many world-recognized brand names. These German exporters must spend a good deal on R&D, and now they'll have another grant to apply for - even if a large chunk of this goes to BMW or Siemens, is that any different from NYC granding amazon 1 billion dollars to build an office in Queens?

And they do produce good research (and good researchers), some of whom don't go to work for US companies / institutes --- and this gives them another potential grant too...

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#44

Post by friedsdeirf » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:06 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #24

5_minutes wrote: post #13

Germany is still not allowed to have an offensive army, so it makes a lot of sense to at least stay first class in tech, and in AI, in order to stay relevant as a world leader for the future.

Everyone in Germany I know who actually made a world-class product had to escape some inept manager at some large German corporation, and those people are automatically excluded from any government subsidies due to a lack of political contacts. So the money will go to people with political skills and buzzword bingo, likely not being able to understand anything they are talking about. Then, in 5 years everyone will lo…

German automakers and other heavy industry makes some world-class products and are politically connected up the yin yang

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#45

Post by obstbraende » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:07 PM UTC

bitL wrote: post #32

rsp1984 wrote: post #25

The problem is not a lack of funds. The problem is bureaucracy and a lack of startup infrastructure. My feeling is that the people in charge have absolutely no effing clue about how to most efficiently deploy this money so they will do what sounds good on paper but will have 0 effect in reality. If it goes how it usually goes the largest part of this money will likely to to universities and other research institution…

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

That sounds like a degenerate organisation. But if we're sharing anecdata: My pay in this Berlin startup is very decent, I have respectable equity and it's a friendly & rational environment. I'm scared of US startup work culture, rather.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#46

Post by friedsdeirf » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:12 PM UTC

thwy12321 wrote: post #20

zwaps wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since only relative income count, you have to expand your comment by saying that these countries - Do not respect Bankers and CEOs - Do not respect academics - Do not respect managers - Respect teachers too much - Respect waiters and delivery drivers too much etc. It's all relative. It's all trade-offs. In the US, you can get actual rich by working a normal dev job. On the other hand, many of my US high school teache…

Not trying to start an argument about country wide wage compensation. But relative to other 'competitive' professional careers, such as doctors, lawyers, bankers, etc, Europe vastly underpays programmers, but also shows them little respect in the workplace. It's not just about the money, the social status of a software engineer in Europe is very low. This is making it difficult for Europe to compete on an internation…

My physician and lawyer friends in Berlin have salaries in the same ballpark as my programmer friends.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#47

Post by fruffy » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

zeroname wrote: post #41

SilasX wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability Doesn't that conflict with German labor law? Edit: Definitely agree about credentialism ("people that are better than anyone else"). Germany takes that to the extreme. Career change in your 30s? Not possible.

> Doesn't that conflict with German labor law? I doubt it, Germans rank high in terms of unpaid overtime. https://www.dw.com/en/unpaid-overtime-a-common-phenomenon-in... They also have some of the lowest wages combined with the rather high social security expenses. https://www.learngermanonline.org/salaries-and-living-costs-... Given that, I think Germany doesn't deserve its good reputation.

Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. There is also a maximum amount of hours you are technically allowed to work on a day, which is ten. Sixty hours also is the absolute weekly maximum with 48 hours being the regular maximum. However, if you do not report these hours no one will ever know.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#48

Post by theredbox » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:20 PM UTC

nradov wrote: post #39

mrdodge wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but they are smart at the industries of the past. Will bureaucratic Germany be able to adapt? I don't think so. Take electric cars for instance. Much simpler than traditional cars. Will devastate the Mittelstand.

Electric cars are only marginally simpler than traditional cars. The body, interior, suspension, and infotainment system are all the same. Only the drive train changes. Building efficient battery packs, electric motors, and transmissions still requires a lot of precision machining and assembly work.

That's exactly it thank you. None of that matters in the new car is an iphone. The only edge the germans have is the manufacturing capacity, experience and an established network.

The car of the future is in the software...so the infotainment is the main interface. Are the germans known for being good at UX ? Not really right. They have already lost the game.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#49

Post by mrdodge » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

biglenny wrote: post #36

orbifold wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are really ignorant statements. Bosch, Siemens, BMW etc. definitely pay well and employ plenty of talented people.

Ignorant? It's a well known fact that European tech salaries (especially SWE salaries) are dwarfed by American/SV salaries. Just look up the difference in what GOOGLE pays its American vs EU employees. This doesn't even take into account taxation rate, which is favorable in US. Virtually every "How much do you earn?" thread that pops up on HN has loads of comments with Europeans being surprised at the amount of money…

It's going to get even more extreme in the near future. Tesla is embarrassing all of the German auto manufacturers mightily. I think they'll need one or two to go down before they break out of their complacency.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#50

Post by raverbashing » Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 6:25 PM UTC

outside1234 wrote: post #38

_match wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> When has that ever not worked out in our favor? Would you explain a little more? I'm ignorant about the history of German government investment in IT. But here in America, federal investment has helped ignite new industries. And as a data science engineer, I'd love to see more German code.

German firms (like Deutsche Telekom) have a ton of redundant jobs because of their inability to make needed structural changes because of the work councils and labor laws. This is why firms like Google are hiring in Switzerland and the United Kingdom instead of France and Germany.

I don't see why one relates with the other, unless you're saying Google doesn't hire in those countries because of Labour Laws