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Germany plans €3B in AI investments

reuters.com

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Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#61

Post by Matthias247 »

SilasX wrote: post #35
bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

>expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability Doesn't that conflict with German labor law? Edit: Definitely agree about credentialism ("people that are better than anyone else"). Germany takes that to the extreme. Career change in your 30s? Not possible.

Officially there are regulations about maximum working times of 10 hours/day. That however doesn't prevent expectations from being higher. It however prevents tracking on the employer side for a higher amount of hours.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#62

Post by rurban »

reacharavindh wrote: post #59
bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

Don't know about the rest of the points, but I looked into several job opportunities at Berlin, and was shocked by how low their offered salaries were. That was the end of my interest in looking for jobs at Berlin... I live in Denmark currently, and can attest that to some extent, salaries cannot be compared because of different social structures & expenses. Getting paid 50% of what I used to make in the US did not m…

It's not 50%, it's more like 30%. German salaries are totally anti-engineering and pro-management.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#63

Post by Rinzler89 »

yorwba wrote: post #57
Rinzler89 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny that you believe Glassdoor salaries as being accurate. People who earn the big bucks don't advertise that on Glassdoor.

The comparison remains valid, even if it only tells you that the people not earning the big bucks in one place make more than their counterparts in another.

Fair point, but even dwarfed by what they pay back home, they still pay more than what the local companies do even though the bar is so low.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#64

Post by choot »

bitL wrote: post #32
rsp1984 wrote: post #25

The problem is not a lack of funds. The problem is bureaucracy and a lack of startup infrastructure. My feeling is that the people in charge have absolutely no effing clue about how to most efficiently deploy this money so they will do what sounds good on paper but will have 0 effect in reality. If it goes how it usually goes the largest part of this money will likely to to universities and other research institution…

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

I worked for a German startup, whenever i asked for a raise they threatened to import labor from Romania or Poland to replace me.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#65

Post by [deleted] »

bitL wrote: post #24
5_minutes wrote: post #13

Germany is still not allowed to have an offensive army, so it makes a lot of sense to at least stay first class in tech, and in AI, in order to stay relevant as a world leader for the future.

Everyone in Germany I know who actually made a world-class product had to escape some inept manager at some large German corporation, and those people are automatically excluded from any government subsidies due to a lack of political contacts. So the money will go to people with political skills and buzzword bingo, likely not being able to understand anything they are talking about. Then, in 5 years everyone will lo…

[deleted]

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#66

Post by bitL »

friedsdeirf wrote: post #44
bitL wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone in Germany I know who actually made a world-class product had to escape some inept manager at some large German corporation, and those people are automatically excluded from any government subsidies due to a lack of political contacts. So the money will go to people with political skills and buzzword bingo, likely not being able to understand anything they are talking about. Then, in 5 years everyone will lo…

German automakers and other heavy industry makes some world-class products and are politically connected up the yin yang

I was talking specifically about SW industry. It's actually an issue that plenty of people think the same approaches that made Germany great in automotive could be applied to software as well...

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#67

Post by hobofan »

chosenbreed wrote: post #37
bitL wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

Oh...I was thinking of trying out my luck in Berlin...

You still can. Biggest marker to avoid those problems is to avoid first-time founders. While repeat founders are quite rare in Berlin, most of their startups are compareatively healthy from what I've seen.

Of course that's just a rule of thumb.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#68

Post by zeroname »

fruffy wrote: post #47
zeroname wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Doesn't that conflict with German labor law? I doubt it, Germans rank high in terms of unpaid overtime. https://www.dw.com/en/unpaid-overtime-a-common-phenomenon-in... They also have some of the lowest wages combined with the rather high social security expenses. https://www.learngermanonline.org/salaries-and-living-costs-... Given that, I think Germany doesn't deserve its good reputation.

Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law. There is also a maximum amount of hours you are technically allowed to work on a day, which is ten. Sixty hours also is the absolute weekly maximum with 48 hours being the regular maximum. However, if you do not report these hours no one will ever know.

> Unpaid overtime definitely conflicts with labour law.

I can't find any evidence that it does. It seems to be common practice:

https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/342740-unpaid-ove...

If you receive a salary, you don't get paid by the hour. If your contract says you don't have a right for compensation (monetary or otherwise) for extra hours, then you don't. Negotiating such terms is up to the employee (or the unions).

> There is also a maximum amount of hours you are technically allowed to work on a day, which is ten.

That's a different thing from not being paid for hours you work extra.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#69

Post by distances »

rurban wrote: post #62
reacharavindh wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't know about the rest of the points, but I looked into several job opportunities at Berlin, and was shocked by how low their offered salaries were. That was the end of my interest in looking for jobs at Berlin... I live in Denmark currently, and can attest that to some extent, salaries cannot be compared because of different social structures & expenses. Getting paid 50% of what I used to make in the US did not m…

It's not 50%, it's more like 30%. German salaries are totally anti-engineering and pro-management.

I think this applies to all of Europe though. London salaries are a bit higher, but of course not at the US levels.

Re: Germany plans €3B in AI investments

#70

Post by hobofan »

bitL wrote: post #32
rsp1984 wrote: post #25

The problem is not a lack of funds. The problem is bureaucracy and a lack of startup infrastructure. My feeling is that the people in charge have absolutely no effing clue about how to most efficiently deploy this money so they will do what sounds good on paper but will have 0 effect in reality. If it goes how it usually goes the largest part of this money will likely to to universities and other research institution…

A typical Berlin startup: - hires devs with extremely low salaries - gives 0.004% equity at best - is run by people that are "better than anybody else" - expects constant overtime and 24/7 employee reachability - has managers with issues saying "thank you" - hires friends/family to higher echelons of company Does this sound like a recipe for success?

While that's a accurate generalization of Berlin startups, from what I can tell it's pretty much the same for startups anywhere (maybe with the exception of salary in contrast to SF, but the cost of living is absurd in comparision).
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