Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

science.sciencemag.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 536 posts

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#161

Post by [deleted] »

Jweb_Guru wrote: post #109
js8 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you give an example, perhaps? In particular, can you give an illustrative example which explains the difference between "free to choose" and "actually free to choose"?

Do you think there is something innate that changed genetically about women that led to them being much less likely to be computer programmers now than they were in the 1970s, but much more likely to be biologists? If not, there is probably some other factor at work leading to these changing "preferences," even though as far as I know women have had no legal barriers to working in either field throughout that period.…

[deleted]

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#162

Post by 0x445442 »

tarkin2 wrote: post #104
triodan wrote: post #14

I think this phenomenon was known a while back as the gender equality paradox[0]. It's always nice to see more data on the topic. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox

It's not much of a paradox surely. Those countries introduced equality systems because the imbalance. Now of course those same countries with the imbalance have those introduced systems.

Ah but why would those differences become greater after the introduction of the equality systems? That's the paradox.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#163

Post by atom-morgan »

tarkin2 wrote: post #104
triodan wrote: post #14

I think this phenomenon was known a while back as the gender equality paradox[0]. It's always nice to see more data on the topic. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-equality_paradox

It's not much of a paradox surely. Those countries introduced equality systems because the imbalance. Now of course those same countries with the imbalance have those introduced systems.

But the systems have further increased the imbalance rather than decrease it.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#164

Post by antt »

grenoire wrote: post #147
antt wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>well-documented differences in the male and female brains that are clearly evident in brain-imaging studies. Has there been any robust evidence that brain images correspond to any real world capability differences? An AMD and Intel cpu look very different under an xray too, but they run the same software at pretty much the same specs.

Well, the difference for the CPU analogy might be that we know exactly what to have them do, and they do exactly that (sans bugs, hah). Brains, whether it's architectural or hormonal, have many other factors that influence their workings, and aren't necessarily deterministically programmable as processors are.

I would like some evidence that under normal [0] circumstances brains which look different act different. So far it sounds like phrenology at best and racist demagoguery at worst when you compare black brains to white brains instead of female to male [1].

I don't understand how someone who would (probably) call themselves progressive can use reheated talking points from 18th century eugenicists without noticing a problem.

[0] Not someone having their frontal lobes cut off.

[1] https://africacheck.org/2015/03/12/analysis-black-brain-whit...

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#165

Post by pygy_ »

antt wrote: post #139
iliketosleep wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think it's strange that it's seen as a 'paradoxical' outcome? The modern trend of gender-associated differences being primarily attributed to cultural influences seem unscientific at best and politically motivated at worst, especially when for many years we've had well-documented differences in the male and female brains that are clearly evident in brain-imaging studies. All else being equal, of course ther…

>well-documented differences in the male and female brains that are clearly evident in brain-imaging studies. Has there been any robust evidence that brain images correspond to any real world capability differences? An AMD and Intel cpu look very different under an xray too, but they run the same software at pretty much the same specs.

For one, the relative volume of the hypothalamus nuclei maps to the gender people identify with, not their chromosomal sex [0], regardless of hormone therapy.

I'm pretty sure the cortical and white matter tract differences also map to different cognitive abilities (regardless of sex/gender, but some of them are more represented in a given sex/gender). As far as the brain is concerned, structure is function.

Also various CPUs may be able to execute the same code, yet their architecture differences will impact their relative performance in both speed and energy efficiency.

--

0. https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/131/12/3132/295849

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#166

Post by iliketosleep »

antt wrote: post #139
iliketosleep wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think it's strange that it's seen as a 'paradoxical' outcome? The modern trend of gender-associated differences being primarily attributed to cultural influences seem unscientific at best and politically motivated at worst, especially when for many years we've had well-documented differences in the male and female brains that are clearly evident in brain-imaging studies. All else being equal, of course ther…

>well-documented differences in the male and female brains that are clearly evident in brain-imaging studies. Has there been any robust evidence that brain images correspond to any real world capability differences? An AMD and Intel cpu look very different under an xray too, but they run the same software at pretty much the same specs.

There is ample supporting evidence. Here is a good starting point: https://stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-...

I should point out that men and women are more similar than different and we can generally "run the same software at pretty much the same specs". But that's a separate discussion - the original article is looking at differences in preferences, not abilities.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#167

Post by oarsinsync »

js8 wrote: post #97
defertoreptar wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society. For example, if girls tend to prefer playing with dolls instead of toy cars, is it nature or nurture? If nature, then maybe there's a biological basis for why less women go into stem. If nurture, then maybe it's society's norms and expectations that explains why women more often go into people-oriented jobs like teaching and nursin…

"It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society." I am not sure why would I want to do that. As a leftist (being pro-equality), I don't really want there to be anybody who got a bad deal in society. But why should it matter which group are they part of? It seems chauvinistic to me.

> "It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society."

> I am not sure why would I want to do that.

> As a leftist (being pro-equality), I don't really want there to be anybody who got a bad deal in society.

I think the issue is that there are very large numbers of people who have gotten a bad deal in society. Investigating every individual, individually, is probably time and cost prohibitive. So investigating by common features across groups of individuals helps to try to maximise that return.

While I think we'd all like to live in that utopia where nobody gets a bad deal in society, it's not the world we inhabit today, not even close.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#168

Post by creep »

Jweb_Guru wrote: post #129
wongarsu wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the programmer example is a much better example than the transgender example. If you are ostacized and disciminated for your choice, you are not "free to choose". It's "free to choose" in the same sense that everyone is "free to choose" to commit crime, with the risk of being put into prison for your choice. The "woman in programming" example is much better. Woman in programming started declining basically th…

Firstly, I think you are implicitly assuming that there's nothing dissuading women from being programmers--that if they join the industry, things go perfectly smoothly for them. That's far from the case, in my experience. Secondly, nowadays, men and women both play games at roughly the same rate (with women playing a little more by some metrics), but that doesn't seem to have improved the chances of women entering th…

Playing games is different from programming, and marketing games to boys is different from marketing computer science to girls.

I don't know why less girls choose computer science than do boys, but I don't think it can be so heavily linked to gaming. The gaming community is actually sometimes far harsher on girls than the comp sci community, yet girls continue to choose gaming. In the gaming community, a girl is either a "thot" or she beats out every male who plays against her. If you're neither of these things the community still believes you're one of them and will react to you/attack you accordingly, usually defaulting to calling you a "thot".

In comp sci, the barrier is more about socializing. It may be a stereotype but I have noticed that many males in comp sci are the less socially-gifted ones. It is often not possible for a female to join such a group of males because they are scared of her. Other than that, the comp sci world in academia is far less disgusting than the gaming world and far less hostile. It's about avoidance instead of outright attack.

It could just be that girls enjoy programming less than boys do. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, I'm saying it seems more likely than not.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#169

Post by swsieber »

ramblerman wrote: post #150
js8 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand, of course, that it makes the difference when you want to change things. But my main question is, why do you want to change things, even in case where everybody is free to choose? I am not really sure I buy into "treating boys and girls the same" either. I think what's more important is to give them options (perhaps against their will, to get them outside the comfort zone). It seems to me that schools al…

> I think what's more important is to give them options (perhaps against their will, to get them outside the comfort zone) How do you justify the against their will part with your earlier sentiment that you don't understand why people care if its biology or cultural. If its biological, forcing them outside of their biological comfort zone seems particularly cruel.

Being outside your comfort zone is good, even if only for a time. (I'd rather not live outside my comfort zone, but my best experiences have come from being outside it).

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#170

Post by 0x445442 »

js8 wrote: post #48
torben-friis wrote: post #37

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

> I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural.

Because the individual can't claim oppression as the cause for something like average pay differences when the individual chooses to go into a field that pays less on average.

Post reply on HN