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As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

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Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#131

Post by js8 »

Jweb_Guru wrote: post #118
js8 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the expressed preference may actually be something they loathe, but don't feel empowered to reject" But we can ask them, right? We can ask e.g. nurses and computer programmers whether or not they loathe the choice of their profession. If there is e.g. relatively more computer programmers loathing it than nurses then you have an evidence of culturally pushed preference (towards computer programming, in this case), re…

I'm not sure why you think that women saying they don't enjoy their careers in programming means they are being forced into programming. If you want to measure that, ask them that question directly. Most of the women I know who are dissatisfied with their programming careers have that opinion because (for example) they are constantly harassed and HR does nothing about it, or because people working with them regularly…

I don't think we really disagree here. I am all for asking the question about preferences directly, and respecting the individual preference, whatever it is.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#132

Post by cal5k »

faceplanted wrote: post #115
grenoire wrote: post #31

This follows a series of validation studies (incl. e.g. http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797617741719 ) from this year especially. The results seem to consistently show the same 'paradoxical' outcome. J. Peterson came to my campus last week and I think he mentioned this one specific study, and also noted several other ones, which brought the one I linked to my attention. It really isn't the only one, a…

Is Jordan Peterson any better in person than he seems in his book? I read it after a friend recommended it and he seemed completely insufferable and possibly mildly autistic based on what seemed like a real lack of understanding of the internal lives of others. Lots of people seem to like him, but I can't bring myself to watch him speak in person since everything I see just traversing the internet is framed as him "d…

I’d recommend watching one of his lectures rather than clips framed as “Jordan Peterson DESTROYS leftist” (the scourge of YouTube). He’s often intentionally put on the defensive in interviews and can understandably get prickly at continued attempts to wilfully misinterpret his arguments.

Better yet, interviews with him and Dave Rubin or Joe Rogan, or his discussions with Sam Harris, are great ways to get a non-combative side of him.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#133

Post by sametmax »

pron wrote: post #120
sametmax wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's assuming equality of outcome is what's best. Personnaly, i'm glad i can wear big shorts and not small suits. What makes it harder is that some people don't know what they need and just look at the neighbour's plate and require to have the same.

Equality of outcome is not about individuals but about statistics over groups (usually groups that have been treated as such by society).

Women and men, are groups. It's not a social distinction. It's a biological one. You don't want a doctor to treat exactly men and women alike, because they don't have the same metabolisms.

It's not proven it's the right think to do to give exactly the same stuff to men and women in society either. I get why we are currently trying to promote it, as it makes sense morally, espacially with our history, but we are at the risk of ignoring important needs and spending resources to gain doubtful results.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#134

Post by AnimalMuppet »

js8 wrote: post #74
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea is that your culture can enslave you in an idea of who you want to be, which isn't really yours , but rather your culture's. The idea seems to be that this identity has been forced on you, and isn't really yours . This brings up all kinds of nature-vs-nurture questions. It also has a nice recursive issue: Those who hold this view (that you should be free to choose your identity, without your culture…

"I think the idea is that your culture can enslave you in an idea of who you want to be, which isn't really yours, but rather your culture's. The idea seems to be that this identity has been forced on you, and isn't really yours." Yeah, I agree, but I disagree with this notion. I mean, if you, even after hearing this argument, still think you made a free choice, then it seems to me that any attempt to subvert that is…

I agree with you. The "If you really were free, then you would decide the way we think you should" people need to think a bit more about what freedom actually means...

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#135

Post by js8 »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #116
js8 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"the expressed preference may actually be something they loathe, but don't feel empowered to reject" But we can ask them, right? We can ask e.g. nurses and computer programmers whether or not they loathe the choice of their profession. If there is e.g. relatively more computer programmers loathing it than nurses then you have an evidence of culturally pushed preference (towards computer programming, in this case), re…

"Learned helplessness" is a thing. If people have been told their entire lives from birth that X is strictly Verboten and they can only answer Y to that question, they may literally be unable to tell you that. They may not really understand it themselves. It may be literally unspeakable and even unthinkable.

It might well be a thing but I am not sure if I can truly (or should) help somebody who explicitly says that there is no problem and they don't need help. Assuming they are deemed to be legally competent.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#136

Post by gizmo686 »

ekianjo wrote: post #126
PeterisP wrote: post #21

Equality of opportunities and equality of outcomes are incompatible as long as the source groups differ in any meaningful way, even "just" in preferences, which is a very big factor in choice of profession. In order to get equality of outcomes, you would need to enforce inequality of opportunities.

Why would you want equality of outcomes anyway? It goes against individual Freedom. As long as opportunities are as equal as they can be, the rest is just the reflection of what individuals want to focus on and achieve. Equality of outcomes will force some people to do what they dont want to, which is undesirable on many levels.

Because outcomes are easy to measure. Oppurtunity isn't.

It doesn't help that we have indoctrinated a generation that there is no fundamental difference between any subgroup, so difference in outcome must be evidence of difference in oppurtunity.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#137

Post by DoreenMichele »

js8 wrote: post #135
DoreenMichele wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Learned helplessness" is a thing. If people have been told their entire lives from birth that X is strictly Verboten and they can only answer Y to that question, they may literally be unable to tell you that. They may not really understand it themselves. It may be literally unspeakable and even unthinkable.

It might well be a thing but I am not sure if I can truly (or should) help somebody who explicitly says that there is no problem and they don't need help. Assuming they are deemed to be legally competent.

I don't know what all else has been said to you here, but I am absolutely not asking you to help such people.

You said you don't understand why other people care so much about sorting out what is biological and what is cultural in origin. A few people (me included) engaged you in discussion to explain why other people might desire to get a better handle on this.

I have no idea why you jump from that to some idea that you personally are being expected to do anything for anyone other than let such research exist so that those who do care and need it can find such info.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#138

Post by gettalo »

jernfrost wrote: post #52

I am highly sceptical to this study. Does anyone have a list of what they measured as differences and how they did it? The reason I am a sceptic is because as a Scandinavian I notice easily how much more macho men are in less gender equal societies and how much more feminine the women are. I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian. I do there is something t…

>I don’t think it is an accident that the world’s top female boxer is Norwegian rather than say Italian.

It's probably an accident. Two weeks ago an italian girl won a boxing gold medal in the youth olympics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing_at_the_2018_Summer_Yout...

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#139

Post by antt »

iliketosleep wrote: post #124
grenoire wrote: post #31

This follows a series of validation studies (incl. e.g. http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797617741719 ) from this year especially. The results seem to consistently show the same 'paradoxical' outcome. J. Peterson came to my campus last week and I think he mentioned this one specific study, and also noted several other ones, which brought the one I linked to my attention. It really isn't the only one, a…

Don't you think it's strange that it's seen as a 'paradoxical' outcome? The modern trend of gender-associated differences being primarily attributed to cultural influences seem unscientific at best and politically motivated at worst, especially when for many years we've had well-documented differences in the male and female brains that are clearly evident in brain-imaging studies. All else being equal, of course ther…

>well-documented differences in the male and female brains that are clearly evident in brain-imaging studies.

Has there been any robust evidence that brain images correspond to any real world capability differences?

An AMD and Intel cpu look very different under an xray too, but they run the same software at pretty much the same specs.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#140

Post by taneq »

Tomminn wrote: post #47

The strongest correlations seem related to the wealth of the country. One reading of this finding is that more effort is directed toward gender performance in rich countries. This could be due to a number of factors. I wouldn't discount the difference in the quantity of media consumed by both countries.

That's what spun me out when I first traveled in Asia. Backpacking through Thailand there was (as far as I could see) pretty equal representation in almost all different job roles, from street vendors to travel agents to IT. (Come to think of it, tuk-tuk drivers and taxi drivers were universally male, though...)

After years of being told that all women loved tech and only shied away from it because it was full of horrible misogynistic neckbeards, and that the only solution to the problem of fewer women in tech than men was to remove any slight negative experience they may have (note that these messages weren't all, or even mostly, coming from women!), it was strange to see so many accomplished, professional women in a culture that gave women no special treatment whatsoever.

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