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As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

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Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#91
post #48

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society.

For example, if girls tend to prefer playing with dolls instead of toy cars, is it nature or nurture? If nature, then maybe there's a biological basis for why less women go into stem. If nurture, then maybe it's society's norms and expectations that explains why women more often go into people-oriented jobs like teaching and nursing.

When you look at it this way, you can see why the difference has political implications.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#92
post #83
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you give an example, perhaps? In particular, can you give an illustrative example which explains the difference between "free to choose" and "actually free to choose"?

I have an anecdote which I found quite interesting: Last week I got to meet my cousin’s daughter for the first time. It was a family dinner and after everyone had eaten she pulled out her barbie dolls to play with. Since I‘ve been on HN for a few years now and this is not the first time I came across this topic I asked my cousin: Why does your daughter play with barbies? Did she choose the barbie doll or where they g…

I think you're underestimating ability of children to make their preferences known. If she really had a different preference, she would either complain that she wants something else, not play with the doll and play with something else instead, or make most of the circumstance and play with it in a different way.

I think what is important here is to give children different options. I personally got a lot of toys from my family that I didn't use that much as a kid, most notably sports equipment. Meccano and (later, as it was expensive) Lego on the other hand.. Not to mention computers, that was love on the first sight.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#93

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

I'm fairly visual-spatial. I now make little websites and take photos and play SimCity. But when I was a homemaker, this largely got expressed as an interest in clothes and household decor because those were basically the avenues open to me. It wasn't particularly fulfilling.

I thought dressing well and being pretty would get me a happy marriage. It didn't. I thought having a nice home would get me a satisfactory social life. It didn't.

I liked being a mom and I liked being home with my kids, but a lot of the rest of it wasn't really what I expected or wanted.

I spent a lot of years pursuing some mirage where I thought X would get me Y and being disappointed. I also spent those years sorting out why my life didn't work and resolving a lot of issues.

There are ways in which I'm very stereotypically feminine and have a history of reading to others as very feminine. But I actually don't enjoy cooking, never learned to sew or crochet or similar, etc.

I've worked hard at sorting this for myself so my life can stop making me crazy. It tends to be a lot of drama when I try to comment on it. No matter how carefully I say "X research resonated with me personally and was useful for me personally in making my life work better," inevitably other people will jump up and say (in essence) "Well, that isn't true for me and you are evil and bad and wrong for saying this is true for women generally and you don't represent me!!!!!" type nonsense.

It's insane amounts of drama that is essentially unrelated to whatever I actually said and it makes it nigh impossible to have any kind of meaningful discussion.

I think some of what I've learned over the years does generalize. But I am increasingly reluctant to try to say anything about such because that's even more drama than saying "X made sense for me as an individual trying to sort my own life."

Based on those experiences, the odds seem long against there ever being research that really seriously sorts this for "the world."

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#94
Here is an interesting discussion and debate between 2 experts in the field on sex differences.

Cordelia Fine in her book Delusions of Gender [1] reports even something as simple as telling girls before a maths test that this is a test in which girls have done well results in dramatically higher scores suggesting the field is still in its infancy and fundamental questions about gender roles and culture remain.

Simon Baron-Cohen is also well known in the field for his work on autism and stands on the ‘essentialist’ side of gender differences and as readers will note in his review [2] of Cordelia Fine’s book and the ensuing 3 part debate [3] [4] [5] with her that there are far too many important new questions raised and many that remain unresolved.

Everything from past studies, preconceptions, cultural bias, data, methodology to conclusions remain in question leaving very little room to draw any kind of conclusions.

In light of this perhaps its best to leave the field of sex differences to experts who continue to study but do not have the answers or data to draw any conclusions.

[1] https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-23/edition-11/batt...

[2] https://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-23/edition-11/book...

[3] http://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-23/edition-12/forum

[4] http://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-24/edition-1/letter...

[5] http://thepsychologist.bps.org.uk/volume-24/edition-2/letter...

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#95
There's a fairly simple explanation: in egalitarian societies femininity is socially acceptable even in "traditionally male" occupations. So women don't need to act "masculine" to make progress in those jobs. When it's socially acceptable for a CEO to be a mother and a woman, more women will feel comfortable pursuing a family in addition (rather than in exclusion) to a career.

There's another fairly simple explanation: "equal opportunity" is not the same as "non-sexist". Without knowing how "gender-egalitarian"-ness is measured (it's suspicious that it uses the phrase "more developed") it's impossible to tell what the societal attitudes actually look like. But it's entirely possible that the countries with the most egalitarian laws still have strict gender roles that are socially reinforced.

So either way the lesson isn't "feminism is wrong" or "equal opportunity is meaningless": either equal opportunity allows women to succeed without abandoning their gender role, or egalitarianism masks the harm of socially reinforced gender roles, or maybe even both.

Much like "if climate change is wrong", even if "gender disparity is innate and egalitarianism doesn't eliminate the differences" (or whatever one might construe the paper's outcome to mean), the worst case outcome of social justice is that we've made the world a nicer place and "butch" women, "girly" men and non-binary folk face less resistance. Or, y'know, maybe we're right and the changes actually eliminate injustice and help everyone.

That said, it's telling that Jordan Peterson and James Damore are mentioned in these HN comments as if they were legitimate authorities (not to mention actual "NPC" throwaways as if this were reddit) and nobody bats an eye. So maybe to those people social progress is bad.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#96

we must do something about those women not thinking like men and driving the average female wage down. remember equal pay is utopia.

Seriously, mods? The name clearly indicates this as an intentional troll throwaway.

EDIT: Funny, I wasn't able to flag the comment until it was already flagged and dead.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#97
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society. For example, if girls tend to prefer playing with dolls instead of toy cars, is it nature or nurture? If nature, then maybe there's a biological basis for why less women go into stem. If nurture, then maybe it's society's norms and expectations that explains why women more often go into people-oriented jobs like teaching and nursin…

"It matters when you want to evaluate whether a group has gotten a bad deal in society."

I am not sure why would I want to do that.

As a leftist (being pro-equality), I don't really want there to be anybody who got a bad deal in society. But why should it matter which group are they part of? It seems chauvinistic to me.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#98
post #83
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not really sure what you're trying to say. Can you give an example, perhaps? In particular, can you give an illustrative example which explains the difference between "free to choose" and "actually free to choose"?

I have an anecdote which I found quite interesting: Last week I got to meet my cousin’s daughter for the first time. It was a family dinner and after everyone had eaten she pulled out her barbie dolls to play with. Since I‘ve been on HN for a few years now and this is not the first time I came across this topic I asked my cousin: Why does your daughter play with barbies? Did she choose the barbie doll or where they g…

>, but is she _actually_ free to choose because she got influenced by her grandma first? Who‘s to say?

To add to your rhetorical question of the inability to trace the source of gender preferences, some research on non-human primates was done.[1]

In 2002, a study of vervet monkeys in the UK found male/female preferences for boy/girl toys.[2]

That behavior was independently replicated in 2008 with rhesus monkeys in the USA displaying the same gender preferences.[3]

There were also other studies of human infants[4] displaying gender preferences, and studies showing similar preferences across different cultures and countries.[5]

Those results will probably not change minds on either side because -- the belief that it's mostly nature or belief that it's mostly nurture -- is too ingrained for any evidence to modify.

If one leans towards innate differences, the studies confirm the beliefs.

If one leans toward cultural influences, then the studies are rejected with "monkeys are not humans!" or "who's to say the lab monkeys didn't learn boy/girl toy preferences from the researchers?"

The meta question then becomes: is it even possible to construct a nature/nurture science experiment that can actually convince one side or the other?

(The answer seems to be "no" based on several hundred years of debate on "nature vs nurture" with no final resolution.)

[1] https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-scientific-funda...

[2] 2002 paper: https://www.ehbonline.org/article/S1090-5138(02)00107-1/abst...

[3] 2008 paper: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/

[4] https://digest.bps.org.uk/2016/06/03/infants-show-a-preferen...

[5] https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/icd.2064

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#99

aka the more women differ from men, the more they have equal opportunities. But it's weird, where are all the correlation/causation and "soft science" comments? I guess it's still early.

Correlation equals causation if you like the implications. Soft science is hard science if it helps you justify your biases.

Same reason people flock to a failed "psychologist" who tells them to clean their room and live like lobsters (except, y'know, he doesn't actually understand lobsters either). Same reason some random Xoogler kid misquoting cherry-picked "facts" is defended by HN commenters. Same reason a throwaway troll comment remains unflagged and undeleted for hours.

But hey, as long as we all pretend to be anarcho-capitalists, we can still claim we're revolutionaries.

Re: As women have more equal opportunity, the more their preferences differ from men

#100
post #48

I wonder how it adjusts for culturally pushed gender differences. Women could have the same opportunities as men but be expected to have different tastes, be subjected to different experiences growing up, etc. which could affect their choices in latter life.

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural. (Well, I understand it if we assume they are being dishonest, so assuming that something is not biological allows them to claim that it can be changed to whatever they think is morally superior. The debate whether being gay is cultural is a good example.) If I am given a true freedom to choose, to decide according to my prefere…

I don't understand why people care so much whether preferences are biological or cultural.

Basically because if it is cultural, it may be a form of brainwashing and the expressed preference may actually be something they loathe, but don't feel empowered to reject.

Whether or not you think this matters for purposes of making policy, it matters a whole lot for purposes of an individual figuring out how to create a good life for themselves.

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