Time to End Factory Farming? • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#81

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:23 PM UTC

claudiawerner wrote: post #76

agumonkey wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's I approach this, I was born at peak happy consumerism in a western society. It look weird to see how it backfires, and why people did that. But some book report how people may starve at times in the US. And when you starve and it's long and tiresome to go between places .. The idea of abundance seems like the obvious path. The problem comes from becoming blind and chasing our own tails. We need to fast.

One of the issues here is the division between government action, collective action and individual action; while most people group the first two together, the divide is meaningful as soon as the government can be said to be operating independently of the people; for me, this has always been the case in Western liberal democracy. The methods for which the obvious path can be achieved are still confused. One idea frequ…

I like to blame it on the people. They're not the source of pollution/production but they keep being lazy and immaturely wasteful.

By abstract labour you mean like overly specific high rate tasks instead of craftmanship ?

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#82

Post by matz1 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

GraffitiTim wrote: post #54

drenvuk wrote: post #31

The author has two articles, one is this one and the other makes a case for veganism. I understand that killing animals for their meat strikes some people as morally wrong but you're not going to change my mind by making me feel bad about how a cow, pig or chicken is raised and killed. This is not a moral problem for most people. We don't really care enough. We eat them because they taste good, are easily available a…

As a counterexample, I used to be like you (loved eating meat) and was convinced not to by allowing myself to entertain the notion that it was wrong, and learning about animal suffering at factory farms. I was able to make a moral determination that went against what I wanted or craved. I still crave meat years later, but I don’t eat it. Probably similar arguments to yours were made in favor of slavery not so long ag…

It might be very well the case like slavery. So until the other side win and I'm forced to not allowed to eat meat then I'll continue to eat meat.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#83

Post by specialist » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:27 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #69

specialist wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feels ya. A few years ago, I got pretty worked up about my state killing an entire wolf pack, just to protect some cows. So I got involved. I learned a lot. Ranchers are people too. I really loved these people. It was just one bad apple, deliberate repeat offender, causing all the problems. Everyone else was totally onboard towards creating a better future. Ranching is unsustainable. And they (the families) know it…

Be warned about Allan savory, I liked his talk a lot, but it seems he's selling snake oil procedures (a few people tried to rebuke him online, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know who's right but it made me shift my stance nonetheless). And about meat, some cultures enjoy eating way less meat, surely we could reduce the quantity, so that farmers can go back to simpler ways, and probably enjoy a lot more quality too.

True. I do remain skeptical. I just really hope he's right.

The opposition feels like concern trolling. I've been in Allan Savory's position a few times. For instance, a local newspaper called me "a sweaty paranoid kook" in the late 2000s. Today, all we can talk about is election integrity.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mahatma Gandhi

I promise you that if Savory is debunked, I'll update my position accordingly.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#84

Post by harimau777 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:28 PM UTC

Sharlin wrote: post #34

agumonkey wrote: post #25

Recently I do feel a global feeling of tiredness. The things we held as progress don't work, abundance feels void it seems now. Jobs aren't giving you a lot of money and even if so, it can't bring you much; we're all very high in material comfort. What we lack is appreciation and sharing. Maybe people will enjoy farming more, and doing things more because what we used to avoid to pursue ~higher jobs is now seen as bo…

Consumerism was always a lie. The idea of working more in order to earn more in order to buy more stuff to purportedly make us happier. Insofar as it did, it came with a terrible cost.

I agree that consumerism doesn't work, but what would most anti-consumerist advocates/thinkers describe as the opposite of consumerism?

It seems to me that at least certain aspects of consumerism work. Labor saving appliances like washing machines, slow cookers, microwaves, and vacuums make life much easier and less stressful. Media like TV, movies, and video games seem to provide legitimate entertainment.

I'm not trying to setup a straw man that anti-consumerist are saying we need to go back to the stone age. I'm just not sure where a society/philosophical movement should draw the line.

What makes the most sense to me would be to return to quality goods over mass production (e.g. emphasis on permaculture, the ability to repair goods, opposition to planned obsolescence, etc.) combined with emphasis of gratitude and a balanced approach to minimalism. However, I'm not sure if this approach is available to people who are not well of financially.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#85

Post by matz1 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:30 PM UTC

orblivion wrote: post #58

drenvuk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only have possibly skewed anecdata for this claim but of the people who I know have seen factory farming investigation videos only two are vegetarians and the rest of them (20+ easily over time) have used it as a joke topic while eating meat laden meals together. This is from college 10 years ago until now. I think sharing these articles helps, maybe it will spur someone into making some new animal-cruelty-free foo…

Can you help me interpret these jokes between you and your friends? "Boy this steak sure tastes good because that cow was suffering" This sort of callousness is a common theme. Is this the form the jokes were taking? I'd understand if it were making fun of the animal for getting killed so long as it was humane, and people who worry too much about them. I'd understand the idea of "yeah I know it's bad, what am I going…

It's not hard the understand, everyone its different, me too if you might say sociopath againts animal, the only thing that make me care animal well being is nothing to do with the animal itself but much to do with the other human who care about it.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#86

Post by wool_gather » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:30 PM UTC

latch wrote: post #8

newnewpdro wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you be against cruelty to animals and still regularly consume meat? Are you implying all meat consumption equates cruelty to animals? Or are you referring specifically to consumption of meat produced cruelly, e.g. by factory farms?

I think your question is pretty theoretical, and the article explains why: the vast majority of animals are factory farmed. And, as far as I'm aware, it's impossible to satisfy current (and raising) demand any other way. I don't really know how to answer you. If all animals were free ranging and we only ate the ones that died of old age, we'd probably need so many more animals / land / energy to satisfy current deman…

Not sure if you were seriously proposing this, but eating things that died of old age is not likely to be a good idea. One of the reasons that killing is part of creating food is that you know what state the animal's body is in: it's not sick, it hasn't started decomposing, and similar.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#87

Post by jonotime » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:30 PM UTC

Great article. I agree that the meat industry thrives on the fact that most people see animals at assets/property. They dont treat them as entities who are entitled to live their life, like we do with other humans. The analogy to slavery is interesting and I have no doubt in generations from now we will look back on these days as savage and uncivilized. This is essentially a cultural problem with a ton of history behind it which is why meat consumers tend to be sensitive about to topic.

But science is on our side here (I'm talking to you, intelligent, rational HN readers). Technology can solve the problems with efficiency and taste by making alternatives accessible and cheaper. And then you have the scientist/public figures in this article. These are the folks who should be bringing awareness to the masses. I think we need to slowly legislate away this cruelty and destruction of the environment. Much like the gay rights bills and tobacco legislation that has come and gone over the years. We need to take baby steps to make animal production impossibly difficult.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#88

Post by claudiawerner » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #81

claudiawerner wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the issues here is the division between government action, collective action and individual action; while most people group the first two together, the divide is meaningful as soon as the government can be said to be operating independently of the people; for me, this has always been the case in Western liberal democracy. The methods for which the obvious path can be achieved are still confused. One idea frequ…

I like to blame it on the people. They're not the source of pollution/production but they keep being lazy and immaturely wasteful. By abstract labour you mean like overly specific high rate tasks instead of craftmanship ?

Laziness and wastefulness are qualities produced by the surroundings, that is to say, in a culture in which abundance is possible, items mean less, as does their disposal. I don't think they are innate human qualities, at least, not fully. The question is to what extent the capitalist mode of production instills these attitudes and thoughts through ideology.

By abstract labour I mean the property of labour as valuable in an economy rather than as the concrete action of producing useful items. A related term is commodification, which transforms purely useful items into commodities by making them comparable (i.e bestowing the property of abstract labour). Abstract labour is what makes a coat and 20 yards of linen comparable and tradeable, and as a consequence of this, money is the general equivalent form for trading.

The focus on high rate tasks instead of craftsmanship ties into the (again related) concept of alienation of labour, which is more obvious in late capitalism.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#89

Post by specialist » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:36 PM UTC

RobertoG wrote: post #71

specialist wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feels ya. A few years ago, I got pretty worked up about my state killing an entire wolf pack, just to protect some cows. So I got involved. I learned a lot. Ranchers are people too. I really loved these people. It was just one bad apple, deliberate repeat offender, causing all the problems. Everyone else was totally onboard towards creating a better future. Ranching is unsustainable. And they (the families) know it…

"#1 laboratory meat will largely eliminate factory farming. [..] All us tree huggers should work to expedite." Any suggestion about how to help here? For instance, is there any organization where we can send money for pushing for this outcome? The environmental reasons alone should be enough to invest in this.

I'm still looking. Please tell us if you find something.

My 1/2 baked notion is to meet with family ranchers, start talking about active management, build alliances with some tree huggers, enlist the help of their (likely conservative) legislators (state and federal). Maybe start in Wyoming. The messaging would be terrific. Maybe enough to blunt the counter attacks from Big Ag.

My other 1/2 baked notion is to enlist the Tim Ferriss types (health nuts, earliest adopters), pitch vat meat as a veganism meets paleo paradox buster, better than current protein sources (eg whey), create demand from the top-down.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#90

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:37 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #83

agumonkey wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be warned about Allan savory, I liked his talk a lot, but it seems he's selling snake oil procedures (a few people tried to rebuke him online, I'm not knowledgeable enough to know who's right but it made me shift my stance nonetheless). And about meat, some cultures enjoy eating way less meat, surely we could reduce the quantity, so that farmers can go back to simpler ways, and probably enjoy a lot more quality too.

True. I do remain skeptical. I just really hope he's right. The opposition feels like concern trolling. I've been in Allan Savory's position a few times. For instance, a local newspaper called me "a sweaty paranoid kook" in the late 2000s. Today, all we can talk about is election integrity. "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." Mahatma Gandhi I promise you that if Savory…

The articles were pretty clear on that his methods were never working. I have nothing against him I really liked his theory at first.