Time to End Factory Farming? • Hacker News Board

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#71

Post by RobertoG » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:02 PM UTC

specialist wrote: post #42

agumonkey wrote: post #25

Recently I do feel a global feeling of tiredness. The things we held as progress don't work, abundance feels void it seems now. Jobs aren't giving you a lot of money and even if so, it can't bring you much; we're all very high in material comfort. What we lack is appreciation and sharing. Maybe people will enjoy farming more, and doing things more because what we used to avoid to pursue ~higher jobs is now seen as bo…

I feels ya. A few years ago, I got pretty worked up about my state killing an entire wolf pack, just to protect some cows. So I got involved. I learned a lot. Ranchers are people too. I really loved these people. It was just one bad apple, deliberate repeat offender, causing all the problems. Everyone else was totally onboard towards creating a better future. Ranching is unsustainable. And they (the families) know it…

"#1 laboratory meat will largely eliminate factory farming. [..] All us tree huggers should work to expedite."

Any suggestion about how to help here? For instance, is there any organization where we can send money for pushing for this outcome?

The environmental reasons alone should be enough to invest in this.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#72

Post by m000 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

latch wrote: post #8

newnewpdro wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How can you be against cruelty to animals and still regularly consume meat? Are you implying all meat consumption equates cruelty to animals? Or are you referring specifically to consumption of meat produced cruelly, e.g. by factory farms?

I think your question is pretty theoretical, and the article explains why: the vast majority of animals are factory farmed. And, as far as I'm aware, it's impossible to satisfy current (and raising) demand any other way. I don't really know how to answer you. If all animals were free ranging and we only ate the ones that died of old age, we'd probably need so many more animals / land / energy to satisfy current deman…

The demand for meat (and especially farmed meat) is pretty much artificial. Without massive marketing spending by the food* industry, the demand would be nowhere where it is now. If you regulate the marketing spending and marketing methods of the food industry, I believe there will be big dip in the demand for meat. This can be done on the grounds of public health concerns, just like it has been done for the tobacco industry. The problem is that food industry also sponsors politician's campaigns, so any move towards regulation is not going to happen unless there is immense pressure from the public.

*This includes both the meat industry and the farming industry producing food for the animals.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#73

Post by henryhenryhenry » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

It’s the convenience factor. That’s it. Once plant-based options are more convenient than meat, game over. Most people lack the discipline to sustain a vegan lifestyle, even in 2018.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#74

Post by wool_gather » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

orblivion wrote: post #58

drenvuk wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I only have possibly skewed anecdata for this claim but of the people who I know have seen factory farming investigation videos only two are vegetarians and the rest of them (20+ easily over time) have used it as a joke topic while eating meat laden meals together. This is from college 10 years ago until now. I think sharing these articles helps, maybe it will spur someone into making some new animal-cruelty-free foo…

Can you help me interpret these jokes between you and your friends? "Boy this steak sure tastes good because that cow was suffering" This sort of callousness is a common theme. Is this the form the jokes were taking? I'd understand if it were making fun of the animal for getting killed so long as it was humane, and people who worry too much about them. I'd understand the idea of "yeah I know it's bad, what am I going…

The exact nature of the jokes isn't clear, but I'd say your last guess is the most likely: papering over one's own cognitive dissonance with dismissive "humor" is a pretty natural tactic.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#75

Post by quadcore » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

I dont like those extensive animal farming anyway but, cattles are responsible for 25% of greenhouse gas emission. Those factory farms are included is it? We must stop. Let's have some regulations; it's not so bad after all, it's just a matter of changing eating habits.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#76

Post by claudiawerner » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

agumonkey wrote: post #68

Sharlin wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consumerism was always a lie. The idea of working more in order to earn more in order to buy more stuff to purportedly make us happier. Insofar as it did, it came with a terrible cost.

Here's I approach this, I was born at peak happy consumerism in a western society. It look weird to see how it backfires, and why people did that. But some book report how people may starve at times in the US. And when you starve and it's long and tiresome to go between places .. The idea of abundance seems like the obvious path. The problem comes from becoming blind and chasing our own tails. We need to fast.

One of the issues here is the division between government action, collective action and individual action; while most people group the first two together, the divide is meaningful as soon as the government can be said to be operating independently of the people; for me, this has always been the case in Western liberal democracy. The methods for which the obvious path can be achieved are still confused.

One idea frequently suggested is that people as individuals ought to reduce the amount of consumption, but does this address the fundamental qualitative issues in the system of production? Even if the scale can be achieved, what will be the meaningful permanent change?

Another response is that reducing the amount of consumption is wrong headed: it's targeting an effect rather than the cause. But in my opinion, the worst solution to this problem is the one which insists on a form of government action. Laws can be changed, but they can also be changed back, and in every country the laws are decided by capital (the structure and abstraction, not "big business"). So this also raises the issue of whether what is profitable is good, but that question has an easy answer: it's not.

My ideas are fairly radical (and very radical by HN standards), in the sense that I think there is a fundamental factor in this mode of production, abstract labour to be specific (which Peter Hudis makes a convincing argument for, rather than property, money, "greed" etc. for instance), which is a cause of overproduction, the qualitative aspects of work in industrial capitalism and much misallocation (judged in human standards rather than economic standards).

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#77

Post by m000 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:19 PM UTC

henryhenryhenry wrote: post #73

It’s the convenience factor. That’s it. Once plant-based options are more convenient than meat, game over. Most people lack the discipline to sustain a vegan lifestyle, even in 2018.

It's also indoctrination. We've been indoctrinated to think of meat as a staple food. Meat was never a staple food before factory farming came along. Fortunately, it seems that humanity's honeymoon with the farming industry is coming to its end.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#78

Post by wool_gather » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

deialtrous wrote: post #66

flippyhead wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wouldn't this, eventually, just lead to the factory farming of goats?

Yes. People think you can't do factory farming of goats because current goat breeds do not tolerate confinement and simply get sick and die. This used to be true of hog breeds as well, but people purpose bred for animals that can withstand confinement. That's one of the primary reasons modern pork has no flavor, we stopped breeding animals that taste good and just worried about breeding ones that survive the industri…

> we stopped breeding animals that taste good and just worried about breeding ones that survive the industrial process.

Exactly, and further proof of your point is that the exact same process has happened to vegetables: they're bred to be transportable and sale-able for a long period of time; not to be excellent. Tomatoes are the perfect example. Most tomatoes that you can buy from a grocery store are really not worth eating. Compare them to a actually ripe summer tomato from a neighbor's garden, and they may as well be different substances.

Commodification turns things mediocre almost by definition.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#79

Post by elbasti » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

TarpitCarnivore wrote: post #26

elbasti wrote: post #24

About three months ago I decided to stop purchasing factory-farmed meat. It's been pretty difficult for a few reasons. The biggest reason, by far, is access to information. Roughly, I would like to purchase only meat from animals that lived a "happy" life and had a relatively short death. Animals that lived outdoors, basically. But there are no credible labels or certifications for this, which means buying meat at th…

There may be a few farms in your state that can do deliveries within the state. It's a bit harder when trying to deliver across state lines as the regulations are much higher. As for eating out, the best you could do is ask or just avoid it (meat) all together (including fish) when eating.

Of course, there are environmental reasons to avoid (some, most?) fish, but I consider wild-caught fish (and all wild/hunted game) fairly neutral from an animal welfare perspective. Perhaps this is a bit naive.

Re: Time to End Factory Farming?

#80

Post by matz1 » Sat, Oct 20, 2018, 1:21 PM UTC

grecy wrote: post #62

throwaway8879 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to treat something with respect and then kill it to eat it? What exactly is the point?

As a thought experiment, let us imagine you have been sentenced to death (that still happens in the USA, right?) 5 years from now, you will be killed. Would you rather spend those 5 years jammed into a concrete cell with thousands of other inmates, unable to move, standing in your own feces, never to see the sun and only eating corn? Or would you rather have a bed, running water, proper meals, be allowed outside in t…

Sure I don't want to be treated like that, but animal well being? I don't care. This just mean I care more than my own well being compare to animal well being and I don't have problem with that.