Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

491–500 of 508 posts

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#491

Post by lamontcg »

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

Thank you.

I'd add that if you make 6x or more than the average barista that you need to stop complaining about tips. I'll listen to anyone making barista-level wages complain about tipping other people, but I don't want to hear about it from other software developers with 6 figure incomes.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#492

Post by GarrisonPrime »

combatentropy wrote: post #385
tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

> You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The entire burden of compensating them is on me either way, isn't it? The employer doesn't pay the employee out of his own money. He pays it out of the money that comes from customers. The question is simply the route. Either I pay $4 for a muffin, and all of it goes to the employer before any reaches the employee…

The public accepts prices more readily if they're broken up into smaller bits.

Sell a $4 muffin without tips, and you might lose business for being seen as "too expensive". Even if everyone always spent $4 anyway when you consider tips.

My favorite brand of fish fillets no longer come with packets of tartar sauce, because $8 for a box of breaded fish was seen as too expensive and they didn't sell well. So now the box is $6.25 and they have a display of little tartar sauce bottles for $1.75 next to the freezer. Sales more than tripled, or so claims my grocer.

I agree with you overall, and I don't think the psychological trick of dividing up the cost is a good reason to keep tipping going. Just mentioning it as a reason that seems to exist.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#493

Post by mojomark »

manigandham wrote: post #443
mojomark wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the muffin just cost 20% more and the untipped barista got paid a higer wage the burdens would still be split the same. That sounds true in principle, but your ignoring the commision aspect of the service. In the tipping model, a very efficient server could, say, serve 100 miffins/hr and be tipped 20% each accordingly. A fast, but rude server could serve 100 muffins, but perhaps get 0-10% tip each sale. A slow,…

Every single industry has already figured out how to motivate and reward employee performance. Tips are completely inconsequential in this aspect.

As someone who has worked in the service industry, and now frequently dine out, I vehemently dissagree that the prospect of a larger tip does not motivate service industry staff.

No matter - do away with tips. I will continue to tip voluntarily and I garuntee I will recieve superior service from appreciative staff.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#494

Post by eigenvector »

Symbiote wrote: post #381
tptacek wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to feel real great? Here's a question: do you always tip your hotel housekeeping? It's gotten harder over the last 10 years since we're carrying so much less cash, and there's no tip line on the hotel bill. But you are hella expected to tip housekeeping: that is a rough job, and a very poorly treated workforce.

"Today I learned", except it was about a year ago when this discussion was last on HN. I've spent about six months in the USA, mostly on family holidays and business travel, and never knew it was expected to tip housekeeping. Pay the staff a decent wage, or at least a fair wage, then charge me accordingly. How do I put a tip on my work expenses?

My employer's expense policy allows tipping 'in line with local customs', but I imagine the accounting department would roll over laughing before they'd consider reimbursing a cash tip with no receipt.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#495

Post by eigenvector »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #327
kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baristas were non-existent 30 years ago.

Espresso been around since 1903?

The countries that have been consuming espresso for decades before it became common in the US don't treat making an espresso-based beverage as a skilled trade. I recall ordering a perfectly serviceable latte at a gas station in Israel.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#496

Post by shawnz »

TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #490
kevinmchugh wrote: post #485

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I encourage you to talk to service workers to see how often this happens

It's illegal. They can sue the restaurant. As far as I can tell most servers like tips because it lets them earn much more money than minimum wage. Also, nowadays it's quite easy to get a message out to a huge audience. I'd certainly boycott any place that were so horribly mistreating its employees.

> Also, nowadays it's quite easy to get a message out to a huge audience. I'd certainly boycott any place that were so horribly mistreating its employees.

Then get ready to boycott 80% of restaurants in North America. It's a hugely abusive industry

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#497

Post by anigbrowl »

monktastic1 wrote: post #164
anigbrowl wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the employer wants to display a low price to attract you into the store, labor protections in the US tend to be weak, and employers tend not to like transparency about their labor costs - it's an uninteresting distraction to most consumers and a free gift to the competition. There's a first mover disadvantage and if the relationship between employer and staff is adversarial then employees generally lack lever…

I'm confused. If the point of your commenting is that tipping is the best way to achieve the desired outcome (of employees being paid for unseen labor), then I would have expected your original comment to explain that, instead of just vaguely hinting that they do indeed deserve to be paid more. I didn't think anyone was disputing the latter. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.

Tipping is the best way to achieve the desire outcome of hospitality workers being adequately paid until there's a plan to address the first-mover issue I raised. I also want a frictionless consumer experience but I recognize that there are competing incentives between corporate actors which obstruct optimization.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#498

Post by anigbrowl »

wetpaws wrote: post #310
anigbrowl wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's why you don't tip in the supermarket. Fresh food service is a bit different from that.

How is it different?

I feel sure you can figure this out if you think really hard.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#499

Post by manigandham »

mojomark wrote: post #493
manigandham wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single industry has already figured out how to motivate and reward employee performance. Tips are completely inconsequential in this aspect.

As someone who has worked in the service industry, and now frequently dine out, I vehemently dissagree that the prospect of a larger tip does not motivate service industry staff. No matter - do away with tips. I will continue to tip voluntarily and I garuntee I will recieve superior service from appreciative staff.

They don't know how much you're tipping in the beginning so you're almost never going to get "superior" service on the first go. Also highly dependent on context. Moving some food around doesn't have a big spectrum of quality.

Tipping voluntarily as you say is just building up a relationship with money. Neither unique nor special, but it's not exactly what's being discussed here.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#500

Post by brokenmachine »

mojomark wrote: post #353
vec wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right about "rewarding exceptional service" being a lie, but I don't think it's correct to frame tipping as "burden sharing". If the muffin just cost 20% more and the untipped barista got paid a higer wage the burdens would still be split the same. In practice, it seems like tipping serves two main functions, neither of which are great for society at large. First, it allows businesses to advertise lower prices…

> If the muffin just cost 20% more and the untipped barista got paid a higer wage the burdens would still be split the same. That sounds true in principle, but your ignoring the commision aspect of the service. In the tipping model, a very efficient server could, say, serve 100 miffins/hr and be tipped 20% each accordingly. A fast, but rude server could serve 100 muffins, but perhaps get 0-10% tip each sale. A slow,…

> a very efficient server could, say, serve 100 miffins/hr and be tipped 20% each accordingly. A fast, but rude server could serve 100 muffins, but perhaps get 0-10% tip each sale. A slow, but polite server may only serve 50 muffins, but garner 20% tip each.

This seems like a weird argument. Do the customers get no say in whether or not they want muffins?

You seem to be implying that a person behind a counter selling muffins is able to alter dramatically the demand for muffins by being efficient.

Most cafes or stores that I see are basically waiting for customers or have only a couple of customers, nowhere near reaching the limits of how fast a worker can throw muffins at them.

I realize you're only using muffins as an example but it's the same with most food places I see.

Post reply on HN