You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping • Hacker News Board

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#311

Post by jstoiko » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

> You can reasonably withhold a tip from someone who is actively hostile or incompetent, but really all you're doing is making yourself feel better.

Well, one could argue that this is effectively NOT making you feel better, quite the opposite. Empathy is what makes people feel better. So to counter-argue your point, tipping someone despite the fact you may have negative feelings about their service or judge incompetent, is empathy.

As a native French/European person, I've always thought of tipping as counter-intuitive, i.e. "why is the tip not included?". But after a few years in the U.S., I realized that this is actually a small gesture of appreciation that -- even if insignificant because so normalized -- will make the person serving you feel a little better about their job and themselves.

For that reason, I am now on the "always tip" camp.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#312

Post by adameast9000 » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:51 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #258

jasode wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> US tipping is not complicated. [...] just always tip. Anywhere there's a tip line. Well, it's been too complicated for me because the comments in this thread show I've been doing it wrong. For example, I sometimes picked up "to go" orders from Chili's restaurant[1]. In my mind, if I sat down to eat, I tipped the server. On the other hand, if I phoned in an order and picked it up, I didn't tip . Yes, I noticed that…

You want to feel real great? Here's a question: do you always tip your hotel housekeeping? It's gotten harder over the last 10 years since we're carrying so much less cash, and there's no tip line on the hotel bill. But you are hella expected to tip housekeeping: that is a rough job, and a very poorly treated workforce.

This brings up a somewhat related question in my mind... how is my %20 iPad tip at the coffee shop treated differently than the amount I paid? Conventionally a tip was something you could physically separate from the amount you paid for the product/service... but now you're trusting the establishment to make sure it gets to the employee? This obviously sucks for the employee bc taxes, but I have a hard time imagining that Dunkin' (!Donuts) employees are getting the full post tax amount of my tip. I could be wrong.

EDIT: I was wrong

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#313

Post by vec » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

You're right about "rewarding exceptional service" being a lie, but I don't think it's correct to frame tipping as "burden sharing". If the muffin just cost 20% more and the untipped barista got paid a higer wage the burdens would still be split the same. In practice, it seems like tipping serves two main functions, neither of which are great for society at large.

First, it allows businesses to advertise lower prices than consumers will need to bear. It's similar to the American habit of adding sales tax at the point of sale instead of including it in the posted price that way. And because, as a species, we're prone to anchoring effects that causes us to systematically underestimate what the final total will be. That's pretty good for proprietors of service sector businesses, but probably slightly bad for the economy as a whole.

Second, it allows those proprietors to price discriminate a little bit (because price sensitive customers will sometimes buy the service but not tip) while pushing the downside risk off onto their employees.

And that's not even touching the way tips allow customers to de facto discriminate against staff (conventionally attractive people get more tips), or staff against customers ("black people don't tip"), in ways that would be anywhere from suspicious to downright scandalous if they were implemented more formally.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't tip well. You absolutely should, as service workers depend on tips to be fairly compensated for their labor. But tips are a bad idea and there's plenty of reasons beyond social awkwardness to wish they would go away.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#314

Post by tptacek » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

skh wrote: post #260

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

I agree with the tenor of your post but there has been tipping creep. A line must be drawn! It wasn't too long ago that coffee shops did not have tips. I'm old enough that it's been ingrained into me that I don't need to tip if I'm placing the order and waiting for it to be fulfilled. I don't tip in fast food places and I certainly never tip in coffee shops.

You might be older than I am (I'm in my early 40s) but there has never been a time when I went to coffee shops where tipping was unusual. Is it possible you just didn't notice? The cue was "a glass jar full of cash" by the checkout". There might be tip creep (I doubt it), but coffee shops aren't, I don't think, part of it.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#315

Post by thaumaturgy » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

ghaff wrote: post #248

thaumaturgy wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I accept it as a tax on eating out. I'm highlighting this part because it's one of the main contributing factors to dining out less and less, for me, and that includes coffee shops. I always tip well when going out; ergo, I don't go out as often. Going off of the "I'm not very unique" rule of thumb, businesses are losing some amount of money because of tipping culture.

>businesses are losing some amount of money because of tipping culture Only in the most trivial sense that people know that, between sales tax and tipping, they're going to be paying a price that's 25-30% more than what's printed on the menu. And most people have some degree of price elasticity. But I honestly can't imagine it matters much whether those adders are folded into the price up-front or you just know that…

I don't think it's all that trivial.

In the first place, I tip well partly because of information asymmetry: I don't know how well the staff are paid from one place to the next. This means that one place may pay their staff pretty well, and I'm still adding 20% to the cost of my ticket, and another place may pay their staff pretty poorly. This is placing the two businesses on an uneven competitive footing, and encouraging more businesses to pay their staff as poorly as they can get away with. This may be business-as-usual in the current American business culture, but the end result is that I'm subsidizing bad business practices.

I'm also subsidizing poor tippers. I know there are people out there who, for whatever reason they justify to themselves, don't tip, and I know that there are some businesses that don't pay a living wage (probably most, today), so I try to cover an extra portion of that cost.

It's also removing much of the incentive for food service businesses to seek out untapped efficiencies. I'm pretty sure labor costs are the largest expense category for any food service business, yet they continue to pile on more staff because people like me are helping them get away with it. I can order a Starbucks from an app on my phone, right? So why is there someone at a cash register who punches my order in to a machine when they've already got the software that would let me do it myself?

If tipping were banished and these businesses had to pay all of their staff a fair wage, it's likely that my total bill would go down.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#316

Post by default-kramer » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

> Very few people in the US are going to admire a principled stance you take against tipping.

It depends what your principles are. Only in very rare cases do I tip less than 20% in traditional tip settings (restaurants and bars). But this iPad tipping is young enough that 1) you're not a jerk for not doing it and 2) we as a society have a very reasonable chance of winning this war.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#317

Post by kevin_thibedeau » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

laken wrote: post #62

dwaltrip wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only "stiffing" if we start with the assumption they are supposed to be tipped. I'm not well-versed in the history of coffee shops, but it seems to me that it is not a well-established norm -- as compared to bars and restaurants, for example. But I'm happy to be corrected if I'm mistaken about this.

Coffee shops are a unique one, though traditionally you tip the barista in particular, not the cashier. It's been somewhat on its way out culturally over the past few decades in the US however.

Baristas were non-existent 30 years ago.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#318

Post by Dylan16807 » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

PurpleBoxDragon wrote: post #282

tptacek wrote: post #209

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

>A very easy, relatively pleasant way to get through life in the US if you're well-off enough that you routinely buy coffee in expensive coffee shops: just always tip. Anywhere there's a tip line. You never have to figure anything out, and sometimes people really appreciate it. This echoes the sentiment that 'if you can't afford to pay a X% tip, you can't afford to buy the product'. Problem is that it seems to keep g…

Higher tipping expectations are generally matched by higher discounts on the pre-tip price. So there is no limit, and that's not itself an issue.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#319

Post by tptacek » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

adameast9000 wrote: post #312

tptacek wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You want to feel real great? Here's a question: do you always tip your hotel housekeeping? It's gotten harder over the last 10 years since we're carrying so much less cash, and there's no tip line on the hotel bill. But you are hella expected to tip housekeeping: that is a rough job, and a very poorly treated workforce.

This brings up a somewhat related question in my mind... how is my %20 iPad tip at the coffee shop treated differently than the amount I paid? Conventionally a tip was something you could physically separate from the amount you paid for the product/service... but now you're trusting the establishment to make sure it gets to the employee? This obviously sucks for the employee bc taxes, but I have a hard time imagining…

There are both federal and state laws governing disbursement of tips to employees.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#320

Post by MikeBVaughn » Wed, Oct 17, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

I mean, I just hit the 20% button and go on with my day. I'm already buying drinks at an expensive coffee shop; I'm not going to get hung up on sixty cents on a purchase that's (comparatively speaking) stupidly extravagant. I usually end up throwing that much in the tip jar anyway when I pay in cash. I don't really feel like this bears deeper analysis above and beyond the standard discourse about the ugly issues regarding wages for service jobs in the US.