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You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

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Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#321
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a very rude way to make the point that you think some people can't afford to tip for their coffee shop muffin.

And that was a rude way to strawman my point that your "rule" is not about 80 cents, but about conceding to every such demand, and is therefore impractical as actionable advice for everyday life. (Making you look generous, and me unable to afford the tip on one coffee shop muffin, on the other hand...) Edit: I would say it is indeed unreasonable to expect people to increase payment on any good by 20% merely on the ch…

But what if the cost of the muffin itself went up 20%? Would people stop buying it? The shops around here don't even list prices for muffins. It could be $3 or it could be $5. Customers seem to think they can afford it either way.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#322

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

Just like internet discourse would improve if people refrained from typing what they wouldn't say to someone's face, these tipping issues would be practically nonexistent if the owners tried to force workers to verbally request a tip after handing over a muffin. To me, these tip requests deserve as much respect as the old inner city window washer routines[1]. They are insulting and show a complete lack of respect for…

I don't think this is a good comparison.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#323

Hacker News threads about tipping are always rough. US tipping is not complicated. You are being asked to share with a service worker's employer some of the burden of compensating them. The notion that you're rewarding exceptional service is a polite fiction. Depending on where you are, the tip is either expected or it isn't. Unfortunately for the mindset of a typical software developer, there won't be much clarity o…

If it's not optional for rewarding exceptional service, then it should be part of the price. If everyone pays the same expected tip, there's no real benefit to having a separate line item on the bill.

But practically, certain customers end up paying a larger share of the service worker's take home pay. Dynamic pricing based on customer's willingness/ability to pay is an interesting pricing model, but in this case the risk is entirely on the service worker who hopes enough people pay sufficient tips.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can be the person who doesn't tip the counter-service worker if you like. The iPad didn't create that tipping expectation; before there were iPads, there were glass jars full of cash. People probably won't judge you for not tipping at a coffee shop. Like I said, I find it's easier to go through life just tipping wherever it's asked, and not worrying whether I'm being an asshole to service workers. I'm not saying…

> not worrying whether I'm being an asshole to service workers I feel like tipping is perpetuating the asshole behavior of owners underpaying employees. I actually feel like I'm making the world a slightly worse place when I tip out of guilt or fear of judgment from those around me. But I clearly know I'm in the small minority with this view. (Purely in the circumstances discussed here. For traditional full service s…

> I actually feel like I'm making the world a slightly worse place when I tip out of guilt or fear of judgment from those around me.

I would argue you're making the world a slightly better place! Your decision to tip (or not) is vaaaaaastly more impactful to the employee on the receiving end than to tipping laws and culture in general.

Yes, the tipped minimum wage enables massive wage theft, etc, but your aggregate decisions about whether or not to tip have approximately zero effect on that.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#325
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's a relevant point to make in the context of this article, because there's widespread disagreement (leaning toward "no") on whether tipping for that muffin is required in the sense that a tip for dining-with-table-service is. A guaranteed 20% for a coffee shop muffin at the counter is definitely not expected. Or were you just intending a pre-emptive general critique of the three people who might use…

You can be the person who doesn't tip the counter-service worker if you like. The iPad didn't create that tipping expectation; before there were iPads, there were glass jars full of cash. People probably won't judge you for not tipping at a coffee shop. Like I said, I find it's easier to go through life just tipping wherever it's asked, and not worrying whether I'm being an asshole to service workers. I'm not saying…

80 cents on a muffin? Which works out to - what - $40/hour at a busy coffee shop checkout line? 1 ring per minute is probably an extremely low estimate in any case, although some of those orders have baristas working on them too. But we’re talking about tipping on prepackaged food here, right?

My sister in law works at Starbucks. She’s a manager so she gets zero share of the tips, but for a busy Starbucks in an affluent area, tips work out to about $100 per week for someone working 35 hours.

Holidays are much higher. Some people will tip for the whole year effectively, putting $20 in the jar.

A lot of rough guesses in the math but $100/week looks like it would work out to 5% at most. Their store is definitely above average for daily revenue.

Most people are definitely not tipping 15% on that muffin.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, those two things are orthogonal. The convention in the US is to compute the tip on the pre-tax amount. If the pre-tax price is $10, a 20% tip is $2 and 8% tax is $0.80, for a total of $12.80. Now, some of this software has come along and tried to sneak in a change to the formula where the tip is computed on the post-tax amount. They take $10, add 8% tax to get $10.80, and then compute 20% of that for the tip, for…

> They have deceptively changed the tip rate from 20% to 21.6%. It's simply a bug. I got a suggested tip amount on a bar bill, the other day and it was clearly derived from the total of all the food and beverage, before taxes. It was all there in writing, and the figures were easy for me to check in my head.

Oh, with drinks it's even harder to calculate in the US. The 'typical' tip, regardless of (a reasonable) price is $1 flat. For a $3 domestic, that's a ~33% tip. For a $7 microbrew that's ~14% tip. Even with $10 martinis, $1 is 'typical'. Trying to factor that all in to the tip on the bill makes for a heck of a problem, especially after a few drinks!

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#327
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coffee shops are a unique one, though traditionally you tip the barista in particular, not the cashier. It's been somewhat on its way out culturally over the past few decades in the US however.

Baristas were non-existent 30 years ago.

Espresso been around since 1903?

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>employers will often slowly push you out by only offering you unfavorable shifts, or outright fire you in states with poor labor protections. In other words; if you're bad at your job, you probably won't have it for very long. Yeah, well no crap.

This is a weird just world view though, because tips are a lagging indicator of job performance more than anything. If you accept the notion that you get tipped less because you are a poor job performer, what is the point of laws that force employers to make up your wages to minimum wage?

So, to be clear, I don't actually accept your premise to begin with. I was a waiter for years and never saw this sort of thing. I did see poor waiters get crappy shifts, but... well of course they did. Lacking any actual evidence I don't see where this can go.

>If you accept the notion that you get tipped less because you are a poor job performer, what is the point of laws that force employers to make up your wages to minimum wage?

The point would be to... establish a _minimum_ wage, regardless of performance. What about that is confusing?

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#329
post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

stiffing a few barristas I'm old enough to remember a time that giving extra money to someone for handing you a cup of coffee would be thought absurd. Sit down eatery? No problem, there's prior art before I was born, disagree though I might. But this recent bullshit of "tip, because my employer doesn't pay me enough", whether its Starbucks, McDonalds, or your fave local coffee shop: yeah, fuck that. McDonalds doesn't…

> McDonalds doesn't need my subsidy. No, but the person to makes and hands over your coffee does. > I'm old enough to remember a time that giving extra money to someone for handing you a cup of coffee would be thought absurd. Then you're probably also old enough to remember when wage increases tracked with productivity increases, or when minimum wage kept up with inflation and the cost of living.

I'm old enough to remember not needing to tip at starbucks or Panera, but not old enough to remember minimum wage keeping up with inflation.

The place where I first noticed the "tip your cashier" thing happening was the Panera at my university. Why in the hell would I tip someone who's job is literally to take my order, and maybe hand me a pastry? These people aren't making minimum wage either, I had some friends there and the job paid significantly more.

Re: You Want 20% for Handing Me a Muffin? The Awkward Etiquette of iPad Tipping

#330
post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure that's a relevant point to make in the context of this article, because there's widespread disagreement (leaning toward "no") on whether tipping for that muffin is required in the sense that a tip for dining-with-table-service is. A guaranteed 20% for a coffee shop muffin at the counter is definitely not expected. Or were you just intending a pre-emptive general critique of the three people who might use…

You can be the person who doesn't tip the counter-service worker if you like. The iPad didn't create that tipping expectation; before there were iPads, there were glass jars full of cash. People probably won't judge you for not tipping at a coffee shop. Like I said, I find it's easier to go through life just tipping wherever it's asked, and not worrying whether I'm being an asshole to service workers. I'm not saying…

The glass jar was clearly optional, from an etiquette perspective; nobody will judge you for walking away without dropping anything in it (except perhaps loose change). iPads are different in two ways.

First, they make the experience more closely resemble tipping at a restaurant. Since etiquette fundamentally relies on on implications and expectations, that’s a lot more significant than it would be in other contexts. It creates a real suggestion that you should consider 15-20% mandatory, just as in restaurants.

Second, they force you to make an explicit choice: if you don’t want to tip, you have to actively press a “No Tip” button. This makes it feel more like an active disservice to the worker, rather than just doing the normal thing – to you, and to anyone watching you. Consider if, hypothetically, the worker themselves asked you if you wanted to tip: it’d be very hard to say no to their face! Having a screen prompt you (while the worker may or may not look away) is much less extreme, but it’s still a shift in that direction, compared to an inert tip jar.

Personally, it just feels awkward to me. I don’t mind tipping in restaurants because there’s a clear protocol. I just have to imagine the prices are 20% higher than what’s printed on the menu. But asking for a tip in situations where no tip was previously expected seems almost… passive-aggressive, I guess? If you want to bump prices by 20%, go ahead, I won’t mind, probably won’t even notice. But don’t do what amounts to an optional 20% price increase, creating unnecessary decision and emotional fatigue for me when I’m just trying to make a simple purchase. That is: If I choose not to tip, I’ll feel guilty. If I choose to tip, I’ll feel worried that I overpaid. Both feelings will fade quickly, because the amount is small enough that it’s not really a big deal; but they still damage what should be a simple pleasant experience.

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