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Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

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Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#101

Post by dschadd »

gambler wrote: post #72
magwa101 wrote: post #68

I do feel like I'm a sysadmin for my life. I don't know how non tech people deal with it. Some of the BUMMER platforms I dislike (unnamed) are ones I rely on to make money, and they constantly prod you to engage with the platform to fix their bugs. Examples are they allow phishing attacks but then force you to reply or your "ranking" score goes down. Super irritating. I do notice the most engaged communities are the…

>I don't know how non tech people deal with it. They silently suffer, develop coping mechanisms and time-intensive workarounds. Most don't even understand how things could be better. This is part of the reason so many interfaces are horrible. This isn't even specific to social media platforms. People adapt to crap. Sounds like this is what Jaron is talking about. Design thinking should be taught in schools or as Gen…

Simply curious - where could I go to learn design thinking? Any online courses you recommend? Free would be nice, but I'm open to paying if it's worth it.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#102

Post by maze-le »

coffeefirst wrote: post #14
decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

Global reach has also given us a global misinformation and harassment crisis that nobody has figured out how to manage effectively. We'd probably be better off if we moved the good parts to smaller platforms.

Misinformation and harassment also exists on smaller platforms, it is a matter how to deal with it. Smaller platforms usually have a more tightly bound user-group and moderation, so it is detected and prevented earlier. But this also means that someone you trust in the group needs to be the moderator or have certain privileges.

So, effectively it is more work per user to manage smaller groups than larger ones -- which is fine, if you find people who want to do this task. Another approach might be a community driven model -- where detractors could be ostracized. For very small groups this might work out well, but as the group gets larger, the potential for misuse rises also.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#103

Post by rsync »

decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

"The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community"

No fees, no development needed, lightweight and has been working for decades:

A listserv.

Everything else is just candy.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#105

Post by rsync »

snikeris wrote: post #93
decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

This reminds me of The WELL: https://www.well.com/

Actually, I have noticed recently that several online communities are approximating what I used to think of as a "BBS".

I think, specifically, of the lesswrong site and the collection of tools and user-created content that are collected under a single site there.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#106

Post by rsync »

crispyambulance wrote: post #32

I wish there was still hope for Ted Nelson's concept of Hypertext. Up until some time in the mid 90's people were thinking of the internet as something intrinsically decentralized. The idea was that we, as individuals, would participate in new forms of discourse and creation through the "media" of hypertext _without_ intermediaries other than (perhaps) agents we would create for ourselves on an individual basis (like…

"Up until some time in the mid 90's people were thinking of the internet as something intrinsically decentralized. The idea was that we, as individuals, would participate in new forms of discourse and creation through the "media" of hypertext _without_ intermediaries other than (perhaps) agents we would create for ourselves on an individual basis"

This exists, and is ubiquitous, and has succeeded beyond everyones wildest expectations.

You may, for free (or almost free), control a public, routable IP address and run any kind of publishing platform or online community on it that you choose to - from a listserv to a full blown Drupal CMS.

You have exactly what you have always wished for. It turns out, however, that all the people that used to just watch TV ... still just want to "watch TV" (whatever that means these days ...)

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#107

Post by wsy »

pdog wrote: post #63
decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

Why charge users at all? Social software could be funded entirely by voluntary donations or a small foundation.

1) It would validate the approach. If somebody is not willing to pay $1 per month, the value of the service for them is obviously too low.

2) it would make abuse much harder: registering 1M fake users becomes costly, and the payment leaves a track to a real credit card.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#108

Post by crispyambulance »

nabla9 wrote: post #79
crispyambulance wrote: post #32

I wish there was still hope for Ted Nelson's concept of Hypertext. Up until some time in the mid 90's people were thinking of the internet as something intrinsically decentralized. The idea was that we, as individuals, would participate in new forms of discourse and creation through the "media" of hypertext _without_ intermediaries other than (perhaps) agents we would create for ourselves on an individual basis (like…

The biggest roadblock is Nelson's need to control it. Nelson had great a concept but he is bad businessman and not good enough software developer. Ted Nelson actively sabotaged attempt to create open source implementation. He initially seemed to approve it, but turned against it. Nelson has patented zzstructure, so there is little you can do until the patent expires (I think it will expire very soon)

Yes, to be fair, I really only want to comment on the concepts that Ted Nelson wrote about. The concepts are great and I wish they had been baked into the internet as we know it.

I don't think there's much use now (40-ish years later) to attempt actual implementations of Ted Nelson's stuff according to his specifications. So much has changed. Perhaps it would be an interesting curiosity?

It is sad, however, to think about how we imagined cyberspace as a dual plane of existence, how it was going to be a liberating and life-changing experience that makes people better versions of themselves. Only some of that came to be and, increasingly, in cyberspace we're just "product" being handled disinterested "social media" monoliths.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#109

Post by [deleted] »

sp332 wrote: post #71
fierarul wrote: post #15

I guess one could write a book about anything, but wouldn't this message read better on a flyer or short article? Is deleting a social media account such a brave move that people have to really ponder it, read a book, maybe talk with close family and friends before making a decision? The 1st Facebook account removal I saw was something sudden: this girl had a really bad experience and the next day all her stuff was g…

Sure, it's going to affect the set of people you interact with in the future. It might hurt your relationships or cut you off entirely from some people. It limits your ability to ask for help or look for work. And it could lead to feeling left out, always behind on what's happening, constantly missing out.

[deleted]

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#110

Post by jpindar »

izzydata wrote: post #37
fierarul wrote: post #15

I guess one could write a book about anything, but wouldn't this message read better on a flyer or short article? Is deleting a social media account such a brave move that people have to really ponder it, read a book, maybe talk with close family and friends before making a decision? The 1st Facebook account removal I saw was something sudden: this girl had a really bad experience and the next day all her stuff was g…

In a sense, writing a whole book about your decision to delete some social media accounts is just as bad as social media. The whole world doesn't need to know about every mundane detail about your life. You can do things and not feel inclined to tell everyone about it.

How do you know someone doesn't use social media?

Don't worry, they'll tell you.

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