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Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

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11–20 of 210 posts

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#11
post #2

> Google will kill Facebook or vice versa. That's where I stopped reading. How silly to think either of those two terrible outcomes would ever come to fruition.

I don't know, nothing lasts forever, and one might 'die' at the hand of the other. It could easily happen through acquisition as he says.

What if the merge? _shudder_

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#12
post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

I think that was the goal of App.net. It shut down last year.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#13
post #8

I saw an absolutely epic debate between Jaron and a Singulatarian. He totally called them out on being religious in that they were just trying to make a geek version of the Christian rapture. I agree that the guy is like RMS in that he is an original thinker who works from first principles and that tends to give him an understanding that is unique and worth listening to. BTW, Speaking of RMS and Jaron, is there some…

Or be from MIT? Not sure which debate you saw, but I recently watched an Intelligence Squared about "the promise of AI" in which he made a similar argument, along with many others. His team jumped 29% percent audience agreement in the post-poll.

I don't know how many in the audience would know the reference, but the fact that he worked directly with Minsky made it a pretty lopsided debate, in terms of credentials.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#14
post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

Global reach has also given us a global misinformation and harassment crisis that nobody has figured out how to manage effectively. We'd probably be better off if we moved the good parts to smaller platforms.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#15
I guess one could write a book about anything, but wouldn't this message read better on a flyer or short article?

Is deleting a social media account such a brave move that people have to really ponder it, read a book, maybe talk with close family and friends before making a decision?

The 1st Facebook account removal I saw was something sudden: this girl had a really bad experience and the next day all her stuff was gone.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#16
> Yeah, actually, one thing that’s really interesting is that Facebook is not a normal company, in the sense that its valuation when it went public wasn’t based on how much money it made, which is what would normally happen with a business. It actually somehow talked the SEC into creating this other category, where it would be valued based simply on how much it was used, just on user engagement. And I think that was one of the most dreadful decisions in the history of financial governance, because, unfortunately, it set the pattern for other companies that went public later, like Twitter. So it’s almost like a government mandate that, instead of actually making money and serving customers, a company will become an addiction and behavior modification empire.

I didn't know this, can someone give more information on exactly how/why this happened?

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#17
post #13
post #8

I saw an absolutely epic debate between Jaron and a Singulatarian. He totally called them out on being religious in that they were just trying to make a geek version of the Christian rapture. I agree that the guy is like RMS in that he is an original thinker who works from first principles and that tends to give him an understanding that is unique and worth listening to. BTW, Speaking of RMS and Jaron, is there some…

Or be from MIT? Not sure which debate you saw, but I recently watched an Intelligence Squared about "the promise of AI" in which he made a similar argument, along with many others. His team jumped 29% percent audience agreement in the post-poll. I don't know how many in the audience would know the reference, but the fact that he worked directly with Minsky made it a pretty lopsided debate, in terms of credentials.

Thanks for describing this. I wanted to see this debate myself. For others who might want to watch it, it's available on YouTube:

https://youtu.be/yC_dfbxQqRI

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#18
post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

I think that was the goal of App.net. It shut down last year.

I had to look that up. I thought that app.net (despite the name) was a twitter clone except that you could write somewhat bigger messages and had to pay for it.

Searched for it on ddg and here is what the excerpt from Wikipedia says: "App.net was an ad-free online social networking service and microblogging service which enabled its users to write messages of up to 256 characters."

Turns out that they did a lot of stuff later that I would have liked but by then I was probably using WhatsApp.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#19
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thought about the article is that basically the author has gotten too negative. He is so distracted with attacking the ad-supported social software we have that he gave up thinking about the software we need.

We don't need software to socialize. Some tasks of our life can be taken over by software, but others should stay with us. Especially with the advent of AI, engineers are racing to automate everything: from suggesting us new friends, new music, with which dresses we look smart, and so on. Automating everything will cause the atrophying of our skills and we will become a bunch of lonely depressed, smartly dressed user…

Your response is literally a use of software to socialize. Of course we don't "need" it, but that's a meaningless statement. We don't need computers or electricity either.

The idea that we're all being duped and manipulated into using something we don't need so that we'll view ads is overblown. It's not false, it's just not a new thing and it's not a problem.

Media has been intertwined with market research, ratings, feedback, and advertising since before the electronic age. Advertising platforms have been getting incrementally better at learning what people want, how to push their psychological buttons, and how to retain customers.

There's a tendency to treat social media users as helpless victims of an evil empire who don't realize their personal details are being used to target them for exploitation. People aren't that stupid. They know what they're trading for these great free products we all use.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#20
post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

Before everyone had to be on Facebook, a few friends and relatives used a hidden forum on someone's spare domain, and it worked really nicely.

A co-op social network sounds an interesting idea. Doubly so if it gave only the sort of features early Facebook had - i.e. the ones useful to the users, before it became about the algorithm, engagement and so on. Wouldn't be surprised if there's something along those lines on github.

It would be really nice to have some choices that actively reject the "users are data cattle" model, even if it goes back to the BBS world of lots of little, barely connected, islands.

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