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Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

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Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#31

Post by dbspin »

nobody271 wrote: post #23

Jaron Lanier is an interesting character. He's not just a smelly hippy. He's pretty smart but I don't buy into him being a "Silicon Valley Philosopher". No one can predict the future. Anyways, for a rip roaring good time I highly recommend this debate on artificial intelligence featuring Jaron ( https://youtu.be/Qqc0t8ghvis ). On the opppsing side is Martine Rothblatt (male turned female, inventor of satellite radio,…

Most of what Lanier has to say isn't predictive - it's description and prescriptive. In other words he's not guessing at some ghastly future, he's describing the ways that social networks are manipulating behaviour right now, and some of the affects that's having. Similarly his analysis of AI is about reframing whats actually going on as digital sharecropping, rather than laying out a future course of developing.

Also - should hardly need pointing out, but philosophy has never had a project to 'predict the future'. That's futurology, which I agree is largely hooey.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#32

Post by crispyambulance »

I wish there was still hope for Ted Nelson's concept of Hypertext.

Up until some time in the mid 90's people were thinking of the internet as something intrinsically decentralized. The idea was that we, as individuals, would participate in new forms of discourse and creation through the "media" of hypertext _without_ intermediaries other than (perhaps) agents we would create for ourselves on an individual basis (like your own personal "max headroom").

Instead what we got are giant "media" companies acting as middle-men, cattle-herders or disinterested extractive entities that are pursing goals totally unrelated to the actual services they provide to the people who use "their media".

Why do we need colossal-scale datacenters for social media anyway? Could there be a totally decentralized solution consisting of just the people and their devices? Or is that just a pipe-dream or sitcom plot like "Pied-piper" on the Silicon Valley TV show?

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#33

Post by nobody271 »

dbspin wrote: post #31
nobody271 wrote: post #23

Jaron Lanier is an interesting character. He's not just a smelly hippy. He's pretty smart but I don't buy into him being a "Silicon Valley Philosopher". No one can predict the future. Anyways, for a rip roaring good time I highly recommend this debate on artificial intelligence featuring Jaron ( https://youtu.be/Qqc0t8ghvis ). On the opppsing side is Martine Rothblatt (male turned female, inventor of satellite radio,…

Most of what Lanier has to say isn't predictive - it's description and prescriptive. In other words he's not guessing at some ghastly future, he's describing the ways that social networks are manipulating behaviour right now, and some of the affects that's having. Similarly his analysis of AI is about reframing whats actually going on as digital sharecropping, rather than laying out a future course of developing. Als…

I know philosophy isn't about predicting the future but Silicon Valley has a strong focus on the future. I'm saying I don't think it's possible to be a "Silicon Valley Philosopher" because the industry changes so fast that you can't speculate on either thr present (as it will soon change) or the future (which we can't predict).

I do like the cut of his jib. Like I said he has a few novel ideas which are always worth listening to.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#34

Post by mantas »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #29
narrator wrote: post #8

I saw an absolutely epic debate between Jaron and a Singulatarian. He totally called them out on being religious in that they were just trying to make a geek version of the Christian rapture. I agree that the guy is like RMS in that he is an original thinker who works from first principles and that tends to give him an understanding that is unique and worth listening to. BTW, Speaking of RMS and Jaron, is there some…

Thinking singularity is geek rapture isn't really original thinking, it's just regurgitation of a cliché. Now dead blog by Steven Kaas had a nice article, listing reasons why this comparison is not valid. http://web.archive.org/web/20110718031848/http://www.acceler... I won't quote the long list of arguments, just a tangential remark: "It’s also interesting to think about what would happen if we applied “Rapture of t…

But flight or artificial limbs was sought after for all kinds of reasons. Meanwhile many singularity proponents want it purely for it being the singularity.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#35

Post by spot »

crispyambulance wrote: post #32

I wish there was still hope for Ted Nelson's concept of Hypertext. Up until some time in the mid 90's people were thinking of the internet as something intrinsically decentralized. The idea was that we, as individuals, would participate in new forms of discourse and creation through the "media" of hypertext _without_ intermediaries other than (perhaps) agents we would create for ourselves on an individual basis (like…

Nelson's concept was more centralized, and that's why it failed. Having no implementation didn't help.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#36

Post by dwighttk »

Maximus9000 wrote: post #30
decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

> $5/year/user I think facebook has each user valued at about $200USD/year. A 2016 article from the Guardian puts it at $60/year... so I'm not sure which number to believe. https://www.kqed.org/news/11661387/heres-how-much-you-are-wo... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-...

That's revenue though, right? Parent was asking about cost. This network would have no ad revenue.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#37

Post by izzydata »

fierarul wrote: post #15

I guess one could write a book about anything, but wouldn't this message read better on a flyer or short article? Is deleting a social media account such a brave move that people have to really ponder it, read a book, maybe talk with close family and friends before making a decision? The 1st Facebook account removal I saw was something sudden: this girl had a really bad experience and the next day all her stuff was g…

In a sense, writing a whole book about your decision to delete some social media accounts is just as bad as social media. The whole world doesn't need to know about every mundane detail about your life. You can do things and not feel inclined to tell everyone about it.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#38

Post by CaptainZapp »

Maximus9000 wrote: post #30
decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

> $5/year/user I think facebook has each user valued at about $200USD/year. A 2016 article from the Guardian puts it at $60/year... so I'm not sure which number to believe. https://www.kqed.org/news/11661387/heres-how-much-you-are-wo... https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/28/how-much-...

I think it depends on geopgraphy.

North American and European users are worth a lot more than users in developing countries.

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#39

Post by decasia »

zaarn wrote: post #22
decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

I personally favor the federated model. In there, you can have some communities that run co-op and some that are free to use. It also makes the ecosystem more open compared to centrally managed software, even if it's transparent and without dark patterns. (Plus, how do you police it if you're talking about a company that is well versed in the art of 'taking it over the line by 1 inch per year')

Federated communities would be neat and basically are how the "real world" already interconnects, socially speaking. I don't think that's exclusive of what I had in mind.

But you have to actually have the communities before you can do the federation (this is also how it works in the offline world — it's not like people design interoperability protocols and THEN found villages).

Re: Delete Your Account Now: A Conversation with Jaron Lanier

#40

Post by CaptainZapp »

decasia wrote: post #9
decasia wrote: post #7

The thing I keep thinking is that I want to have social software built on a co-operative model (like a food co-op): you all pay some nominal membership fee (could you fund servers and developers on $5/year/user?), and the software would then be developed to fit the agreed-upon needs of the community, without dark patterns or behavior modification projects, openly, and with some kind of community governance (which nee…

My thought about the article is that basically the author has gotten too negative. He is so distracted with attacking the ad-supported social software we have that he gave up thinking about the software we need.

He's one of two really relevant critical thinkers on tech and is critical of some of the aspects since literally decades. The other, arguably, being Evgeny Morozov (for a shorter time).

Lanier certainly has the chops, the background and the deliverables to be taken seriously.

I think those guys are super important as a counterweight to the fawning and gushing (in general) tech press and I for one wish that they have far more reach, impact and influence.

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