SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal • Hacker News Board

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#781

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:19 AM UTC

matwood wrote: post #107

empath75 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say the shorts don't have any power to hurt tesla, but much of tesla's and elon musk's personal debt is backed by Tesla shares. If the price dips too low, it's potentially catastrophic for the company and him.

What exactly did the shorts do here? Musk has brought on all this scrutiny himself. The shorts didn't bail out Solar City, miss nearly every production target, use TSLA as a way to personally finance a lavish lifestyle, or commit securities fraud. The shorts are all over this stock because of issues like the above. They were not the cause of those issues.

I'm ignorant of the practical aspects here: aren't shorts self-fulfilling eventually if the people taking this positions are powerful enough?

If I'm long on Tesla, then I lend my shares for someone and the shares happen to fall at all (normal market variations) then I lost money. If I see more short orders then surely I'm going to get antsy, move to "a more stable share", pushing the price down a little, making some other short positions come off and starting the snowball rolling.

Add to that the ability of people to win on large short positions by selling shares 'they' are holding (pushing the price down), or knowing what major news outlets are publishing in advance, and any inkling of weakness gets multiplied beyond reality.

Surely you'd be stupid not to respect a major trading operation going short on a company you're long on; but that makes the position easy to manipulate?

If you see the sharks circling ready to depress your share price the temptation to blip the share price with an announcement "free cake for all shareholders!" is going to be strong. Especially if that might save the company.

Teach me oh wise ones, where am I wrong, what am I missing.

(I'd guess one thing would be the ability to hide the origin of bids/buys; I assume these are public.)

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#782

Post by tim333 » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:20 AM UTC

PSZD wrote: post #612

anonytrary wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the US, you're not supposed to say anything publicly that can manipulate the stock price Not quite. You can't intentionally say things for the purpose of manipulating the price, you can still say things if they affect the price -- it is impossible not to, since every little thing a CEO does affects the price to some extent (econophysics?). The lawsuit would have to prove that Musk tweeted with the intention of m…

Musk didn't say he wanted to take the company private, he said he wanted to AND that he had secured funding to do so at a specific price. This is a clear statement of facts, something that would be entirely reasonable to trade based on. It also appears he knew this was a false statement, at best it was very reckless. I really don't see how you can defend this. When your words make people gain or lose 9 or 10 digits o…

And it seems likely that he did have the "intention of manipulating the price." He's gone on about price changes and annoying the short sellers quite a bit. He's not naive on this stuff.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#783

Post by alehul » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:20 AM UTC

tinkerteller wrote: post #774

browsercoin wrote: post #69

I'm perplexed how Musk could act without thinking of the consequences? Now I fear that he will be banned from SpaceX as well, when you are convicted of fraud by SEC, it will impact your duties at other companies. It takes decades to build a reputation but it can be destroyed overnight with a single tweet.

The guy hasn't been sleeping and short sellers had essentially all but cornered him to the extent he would go bankrupt. I don't blame him too much except that he hasn't got his #2 with whom he can vent out, calm down and strategize. Gates had Ballmer, Page has Brin, Zuck has Sanders. Who does Musk has? Not acquiring #2 is his single biggest failure.

He absolutely has one in Shotwell on the SpaceX side.

Maybe that's part of the reason that Tesla is the company causing him all the issues.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#784

Post by jmachete » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:21 AM UTC

Musk is Tesla, and people loves Musk whatever he do. The same way a couple years ago, the Apple Board pulled out Steve Jobs from his company, they are now trying to do the same with Musk on Tesla. BAD Move. Tesla without Musk is nothing

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#785

Post by sobani » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:26 AM UTC

erikb wrote: post #715

siberianbear wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Shorting" a stock means selling it without owning it, essentially owning negative stock. You're betting that it will go down, and then when it does go down, you close your position by buying the stock (to get back to zero shares). The risk in doing this is unlimited. If you short a stock at $100, and then it goes to $500, you've lost $400. Your broker doesn't want to take liability for your loss if you're not able t…

My understanding is different: Shorting a stock means borrowing it and paying a fee for borrowing it. Then selling the borrowed stock and hoping when you buy it back it's worth less. If the borrower doesn't want his stock back and the price is too high for you, then you simply don't buy and continue to pay the fee. So if you borrow stock for $100, maybe each year you pay a $5 fee, and sell it for $100. Considering th…

If you have > $400 to cover the difference, then yes, you could keep on holding the stock at $500.

But most people don't 'leverage' like that. So they either get spooked and cut their losses (before the price goes on to $1000) or their broker steps in and basically says: "either you show us that $400 or we sell before your bad judgement becomes ours."

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#786

Post by pbhjpbhj » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:32 AM UTC

pvelagal wrote: post #489

chollida1 wrote: post #6

This comment I made a few weeks ago is coming alot closer to the truth than I would have expected. I hope for Space X and Tesla's sake that the reports of a directory and Executive ban don't come true. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18016250#18016292 SpaceX is doing well, Tesla has pulled itself back from the brink and may actually become a profitable car company. All Elon had to do was keep his head down and n…

SEC suing Elon Musk is , quite frankly one of the most abhorrent actions a US govt agency can ever do against genuine American Entrepreneurship and American innovative spirit. There is not a single human being on the planet who comes close to Elon Musk when it comes to big , bold innovation and tech entrepreneurship who is putting his heart and soul into leading the human race into the future.

>genuine American Entrepreneurship [...] //

He's African isn't he?

Although why entrepreneurship needs a continental characteristic adding to it I'm not sure.

Perhaps you just meant "against entrepreneurship and innovative spirit in USA"?

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#787

Post by DennisP » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:32 AM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #663

vital_sol wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, Jeff Bezos with Blue Origin is so far behind that they haven't launched anything to the Low Earth Orbit yet, and as far as I know they don't have plans to launch to LEO for the next few years. So wrg to reusable launch vehicles, so far SpaceX is the only game in town. OTOH, Jeff Bezos has more money and can speed things up if he wants.

SpaceX is the only serious private company. And without government launches they would have a hard time as well. In the de-facto public sector you have the Russians, Ariane, the Chinese, the Indians... It's not that there wouldn't be anything in space without SpaceX. The thing I love about SpaceX is how they showed what can be done without the over abundance of bureaucracy you see elsewhere. Not that programs like Ar…

What's really different about SpaceX is the cost of launch. Governments and their contractors are happy to launch your stuff into space for thousands of dollars per pound, but nobody was putting significant work into reusable rockets. Just a reusable first stage drops the cost by about 80%, and the BFR is supposed to take the cost down to about $50/lb once it's flying at high volume. That completely changes what we're able to do in space.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#788

Post by chrisweekly » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:33 AM UTC

visarga wrote: post #683

snowwrestler wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm posting this from a Macbook Pro I bought in November 2008. My family uses it daily. My daily work computer is a 2012 Macbook Air which I dropped from a standing height 4 years ago. It has one bent corner but still runs great.

I still have iMacs from 2007 that are being used by my kids. I only upgraded the HDD to SSD a couple of years ago and they work flawlessly. No viruses, no tech support needed for 10 years. That is just amazing hardware, but on the other hand, I have a pair of AirPods that just can't autoconnect to my MacBook unless I fiddle with the Bluetooth and speaker icons in the toolbar every time. And AirPods were fucking expen…

Yeah Bluetooth sucks, and this is compounded by Apple's subpar BT handling in macOS.

That said, my Sennheiser HD1 headphones are absolutely amazing, and I don't miss being physically tethered to my laptop.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#789

Post by _fizz_buzz_ » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:35 AM UTC

anonytrary wrote: post #365

Animats wrote: post #246

He definitely lost it. And it's going to cost him. This is an open and shut case against Musk. He definitely sent out that tweet. Yes, maybe just not enough sleep and too many drugs. Not a good excuse. Tesla might do better with a new CEO. They're past the vision stage. Tesla's problems today are all those of running a big auto plant. Musk might do better focusing on Space-X.

Elon Musk has always had a disdain for the responsibility of running a public company, it seems perfectly reasonable that he tweet, in exasperation, that he wishes to make the company private. Why do so many people in this thread want the only guy making (rockets && green cars && batteries && solar && ...) to fail so badly? The guy smokes weed once on camera, now he's a witch and needs to be hunted down? We care abou…

Honestly, I don't care if Musk succeeds or fails. However, I want Tesla to succeed and I think at this point Musk might not be the best candidate to figure out Tesla's problems.

Re: SEC Sues Musk and Seeks Ban for His Tweets on Go-Private Deal

#790

Post by matwood » Fri, Sep 28, 2018, 11:44 AM UTC

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #746

matwood wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What exactly did the shorts do here? Musk has brought on all this scrutiny himself. The shorts didn't bail out Solar City, miss nearly every production target, use TSLA as a way to personally finance a lavish lifestyle, or commit securities fraud. The shorts are all over this stock because of issues like the above. They were not the cause of those issues.

> use TSLA as a way to personally finance a lavish lifestyle The others I get but this seems like an odd personal attack. What CEO of a huge public company doesn't live a "lavish lifestyle"? Or is this just supposed to make us hate him more because he's rich and we're not?

Perhaps it was harsh, and I can't find the article right now outlining the multiple mansions, etc... Outside of that, I don't care how rich someone is, but the problem is that he's using TSLA stock as collateral for large personal loans. This puts enormous pressure on him to maintain a stock price above $X at all costs. Assuming he has used all of the other money borrowed to fund his other companies, if TSLA goes down could it take down all of his companies? That I'm unsure about.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimcollins/2018/05/18/musk-has-...