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How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

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Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#171

Post by misabon »

ericd wrote: post #153
kenmicklas wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are advocating something like IP mercantilism which is even worse than the original mercantilism considering that IP is not a zero-sum commodity. It should be distributed as widely as possible.

And then what incentivizes a company to invest heavily in R&D if they will derive no disproportionate advantage from their discoveries? Wouldn't there be a bit of a tragedy of the commons situation where everyone tries to wait for everyone else to invest so that they can reap the reward while others bear the cost? If that comes to pass, everyone will be poorer as R&D spending slows down.

You know the HN line “your business model is not my problem” that’s trotted out when it’s the advertising industry or the media industry? Well, “your business model is not my problem”.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#172

Post by misabon »

anon92612 wrote: post #83

It’s interesting the vast difference in reporting the media has on China’s IP issues vs India’s and even Canada’s. I wonder if China only remade pharmaceutical IP while India remade technological, the reports would be different? Or is it because China is a rival?

It’s the last thing. India and Canada are globally irrelevant. China is a waking titan.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#173

Post by [deleted] »

weberc2 wrote: post #30
coliveira wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that this is not jumping from a bridge, it is the tried and tested way to develop a nation's industry. Moreover, it is very funny hearing this coming from Americans who are in one side accepting that this is wrong and then in the same breath denouncing it being done to themselves!

There's no contradiction; the standards in the 1800s were much lower across the globe. These standards are no longer acceptible today.

[deleted]

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#174

Post by ionised »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #91
natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

>All the while, these companies keep their financial gain private, in the pockets of execs and shareholders. I don't think the gain is as one-sided as you suggest here. The American consumer has had decades of inexpensive goods available. That is a real economic benefit.

Cheap luxury goods like TVs and phones and financed cars?

I don't think this naked materialism really improves quality of life for the average schmuck, it just adds a gilding.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#176

Post by natmaka »

reaperducer wrote: post #12
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?" I don't know if you're an American or not, but there's an very common expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Indeed, "Ad hominem tu quoque"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#177

Post by Nasrudith »

YorkshireSeason wrote: post #11

There's a gentlemen's agreement between nations that this is permissible for poor nations. China is no longer poor and now must act like a wealthy nation and accept IP laws.

It isn't really a gentleman's agreement so much as a blood from a stone type thing. Forcing their "rights" would require expensive imperialism, appall others and breed insurgencies as local sentiment turns from 'screw the kleptocrat in charge' to 'get those foreign literal invaders out'. The occupying forces and home country get pissy about pointless wars and deaths to serve wealthy interests and it becomes clear the whole thing isn't worth it by the hundredth maiming.

Law propagation is done cynically via who benefits - either via influence and threats or mutual benefit. China would need to suffer from a lack of protection of their own to agree to the status quo which the west has become accustomed to. It is not a natrual state of being by any means.

Anyone who has suffered bullying and received a blind eye from society in return would know that despite the lofty claimed principles they never operate on equality, justice or other but power and what they can get away with.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#178

Post by Nasrudith »

standerman wrote: post #64

I've seen some recent pushes for "right to repair" legislation. I can see how this is great for consumers. I can also see how this forces companies to be more open about their components and interfaces, which weakens their ability to keep trade secrets. It also increases the attack surfaces for people and organizations attempting to compromise the device. I suspect the end result is more system on a chip design style…

That is already the status quo really from other forces. Repairing usually doesn't scale, automation allows for very fine details to join cheaper faster and better like soldering instead of ribbom connectors. Security by obscurity isn't.

Trade secrets are bullshit as a doctrine. Why is the rest of society obligated to protect not advancing at their own expense for the sake of private greed? The proper response to breech of trade secrets in a court of law should be "You never registered it for any sort of protection in exchange for disclosure and chose to keep it secret. Go to hell."

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#179

Post by Nasrudith »

ericd wrote: post #153
kenmicklas wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like you are advocating something like IP mercantilism which is even worse than the original mercantilism considering that IP is not a zero-sum commodity. It should be distributed as widely as possible.

And then what incentivizes a company to invest heavily in R&D if they will derive no disproportionate advantage from their discoveries? Wouldn't there be a bit of a tragedy of the commons situation where everyone tries to wait for everyone else to invest so that they can reap the reward while others bear the cost? If that comes to pass, everyone will be poorer as R&D spending slows down.

First mover advantage and brand building. The status quo even with strong IP protections is reverse engineering and making something that can be sold legally often with additional refinements. That sort of system can be argued as working as intended for everyone.

Apple for instance can be copied easily yet iPhone knockoffs don't command comparable prices due to lack of established trust and quality. Rivals compete openly with their own R&D.

Microsoft the behemoth failed to break in the phone market even with heavy supportive measures and willingness to take a loss like they did with xbox.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#180

Post by Fjolsvith »

api wrote: post #93
lotsofpulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Might makes right, and you can only take someone to task if you have the power to do so. The US (or at least owners of equity in the US) are too dependent on the cheap labor and lax environmental rules of China, otherwise there is no reason for the most powerful country in the world to let another country take "advantage" of them.

China is equally dependent on foreign infusions of capital. The real issue I think is that labor arbitrage has been very good for upper income and wealthy Americans. Corporations and the rich have gotten much richer by shipping labor off to China and paying less for it and pocketing the difference. That's largely why there has been no political will to challenge this situation.

To me, the lack of political will to change has been akin to the local business owner being afraid to tell the local mafia boss he no longer needs protection.
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