Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 208 posts

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#61

Post by ip26 »

pjc50 wrote: post #31

There's a rather surprising attitude in this discussion that the IP belongs to a country (e.g. "Allowing non-citizens to get access to the IP should be illegal."), as if it were some sort of nationalised asset in common ownership. It's a privately owned asset for private benefit. It's not a form of property that pays property tax.

Keeping IP within the borders of a country, or within a group of countries with mutual patent agreements, is certainly in the interests of the patent holder. IP is only meaningful if enforced. So, containing IP within the countries that have agreed to respect the patent is a rational part of the institution of patents.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#62

Post by chillacy »

rayiner wrote: post #27
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

The fact that we did it to the UK doesn't mean it's good for us to let China do it too. I mean, we exterminated the native Americans and stole their land--if someone tried to do that to us, should we sit back and do nothing? "Oh well, cosmic balance and whatnot!"

It’s definitely in American interests to defend IP, but I wouldn’t try to make moralistic arguments, they just come off as hypocritical given the history.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#64

Post by standerman »

I've seen some recent pushes for "right to repair" legislation. I can see how this is great for consumers. I can also see how this forces companies to be more open about their components and interfaces, which weakens their ability to keep trade secrets. It also increases the attack surfaces for people and organizations attempting to compromise the device. I suspect the end result is more system on a chip design styles that are basically impossible to repair.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#65

Post by TeMPOraL »

aaaaaaaaaab wrote: post #46
YorkshireSeason wrote: post #11

There's a gentlemen's agreement between nations that this is permissible for poor nations. China is no longer poor and now must act like a wealthy nation and accept IP laws.

As they say in international relations: “or else?”

Or else worse trade deals with you?

China is already suffering from it. The golden age of them not giving a fuck about IP in hardware space are coming to an end, to detriment of the society at large.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#66

Post by simion314 »

rndmize wrote: post #53
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

> Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of giving up. I feel like this misses the point. I don't expect people to complain much about IP being stolen by competitors - that feels like an security/internal problem. The issue with China seems to be that they force partnerships with Chinese companies, resulting in wester…

Can't the companies just not do business in China if they don't like the contract? Other countries have similar laws, like it forces companies to hire local people or spend part of the money locally.

If China can afford to not respect the IP laws then there is nothing what a company can do, eventually the secrets would be reversed engineered.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#67

Post by zekevermillion »

China doesn't need the technology per se. China is now an advanced technological country in its own right, even if the fruits of that may still be unevenly distributed -- as, to be fair, they are in the rest of the world as well. The behaviors described are primarily about control and power over strategic industries at a macro level.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#68

Post by mattnewton »

diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

I mean, regardless of whether we should expect a country to engage in this behavior or whether or not it is right, it’s worth noting that this is an area to plan around in trade agreements and concessions. Despite contracts with the companies in question, the IP was used for whatever purposes the Chinese government wanted.

So it’s worth noting that, as a western company, you cannot trust these agreements, whether or not the actions of the Chinese are justified. You should assume that any restrictions you negotiated are worthless, and if you want access to the Chinese market the price implicitly includes any IP the local partner can take.

That’s what I see as the takeaway.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#69

Post by api »

simion314 wrote: post #66
rndmize wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of giving up. I feel like this misses the point. I don't expect people to complain much about IP being stolen by competitors - that feels like an security/internal problem. The issue with China seems to be that they force partnerships with Chinese companies, resulting in wester…

Can't the companies just not do business in China if they don't like the contract? Other countries have similar laws, like it forces companies to hire local people or spend part of the money locally. If China can afford to not respect the IP laws then there is nothing what a company can do, eventually the secrets would be reversed engineered.

They do. This is part of why we have such a large trade deficit with China.

The real issue here is China's double-talk on trade. They talk about open free trade but in reality they practice intense nationalistic and protectionist trade tactics. They do everything possible to prevent foreign companies from selling anything in China, while at the same time doing everything they can to attract foreign labor outsourcing, capital, and of course IP.

I can't blame them too much. These kinds of trade policies are how nations build strong domestic economies. The US did the same thing during its industrialization phase. Nevertheless it's horrible for American workers and the American middle class.

It's literally the only thing I agree with Trump about -- that China needs to be taken to task for its extremely aggressive trade policies.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#70

Post by TeMPOraL »

reaperducer wrote: post #12
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?" I don't know if you're an American or not, but there's an very common expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

> This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?"

Of course?

This is one of the stupidest question in the world; I don't understand how parents worldwide are still repeating it.

Randall Munroe explains it best: https://xkcd.com/1170/.

Post reply on HN