How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies • Hacker News Board

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#91

Post by Consultant32452 » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

>All the while, these companies keep their financial gain private, in the pockets of execs and shareholders.

I don't think the gain is as one-sided as you suggest here. The American consumer has had decades of inexpensive goods available. That is a real economic benefit.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#92

Post by anon92612 » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #52

tropo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways, you can't blame China for trying. It's playing dirty, but that's how international relations go. You can place a bit more blame on the US companies that let it happen. The people running them are short-sighted and unpatriotic. The real problem is that the law allows companies to be in a race to the bottom that is ultimately self-destructive. Allowing non-citizens to get access to the IP should be illega…

> You can place a bit more blame on the US companies that let it happen. This is one aspect of Chinese culture that I’ll never understand. For example, if you get cheated, it’s your fault for being lax/trusting/stupid enough to get cheated. The immorality is on the victim, which makes for some extremely paranoid business relationships when working in China. How is that beneficial in the long term? Why doesn’t such a…

At least in the US, you have to be cheated a second time for it to be your fault.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#93

Post by api » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #84

api wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do. This is part of why we have such a large trade deficit with China. The real issue here is China's double-talk on trade. They talk about open free trade but in reality they practice intense nationalistic and protectionist trade tactics. They do everything possible to prevent foreign companies from selling anything in China, while at the same time doing everything they can to attract foreign labor outsourcing,…

Might makes right, and you can only take someone to task if you have the power to do so. The US (or at least owners of equity in the US) are too dependent on the cheap labor and lax environmental rules of China, otherwise there is no reason for the most powerful country in the world to let another country take "advantage" of them.

China is equally dependent on foreign infusions of capital. The real issue I think is that labor arbitrage has been very good for upper income and wealthy Americans. Corporations and the rich have gotten much richer by shipping labor off to China and paying less for it and pocketing the difference. That's largely why there has been no political will to challenge this situation.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#94

Post by greenleafjacob » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

sangnoir wrote: post #90

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

> More than anything else, the attitude displayed in this article appears to me as an attempt to defer (or pass to the public) the consequences of the above calculated choices. Say what you will, but "privatize profits and socialize losses"[1] is winning formula, even in a country that on its face rejects socialism. What's interesting in light of your observation is that companies didn't stay away from China due to o…

You mean privatize profits and socialize losses.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#95

Post by sdinsn » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #31

There's a rather surprising attitude in this discussion that the IP belongs to a country (e.g. "Allowing non-citizens to get access to the IP should be illegal."), as if it were some sort of nationalised asset in common ownership. It's a privately owned asset for private benefit. It's not a form of property that pays property tax.

It sounds like you are just criticizing Americans who believe this, and not the Chinese who believe and strongly enforce this in the other direction.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#96

Post by anon92612 » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 4:57 PM UTC

ccnafr wrote: post #88

tl;dr: It steals it

piracy != theft

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#97

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

alehul wrote: post #85

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

By the same logic, I'm aware there likely isn't a prince in Nigeria who will send me a boatload of money if I send them .1% of that money over the internet. We nonetheless, as a society, choose to shame and fight the action of the scammer, though many capable people fall for it. What I mean to say is that just because I'm taking a calculated risk does not remove the other party of moral and legal liability for their…

> In fact, the only argument I remember hearing (I think it was Marc Andreessen?) against the shaming of the scammer in the prince analogy is that they sometimes have no other option to feed their family. I doubt that justification applies to Chinese IP theft.

I do not necessarily agree with this argument, but it actually translates to China's situation pretty directly - you could argue that their attitude to IP is a necessary component of their attempt to quickly lift the whole country out of poverty.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#98

Post by lotsofpulp » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 4:58 PM UTC

ndesaulniers wrote: post #35

analognoise wrote: post #34

I don't get it: why not just not do business with China? If they're going to take your IP, just don't go there.

Then how do you complete when your competitors already have and their costs are now significantly reduced?

You can't, because the consumers are OK (either knowingly or unknowingly) with the costs resulting from allowing China to obtain the IP (and manufacturing facilities and knowledge, etc).

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#99

Post by dx87 » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:01 PM UTC

chillacy wrote: post #48

weberc2 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no contradiction; the standards in the 1800s were much lower across the globe. These standards are no longer acceptible today.

By whose standard? It’s awfully convenient for the United States to reap the benefits of “lower standards” and then shut the gates after they no longer need those lower standards.

Would you consider slavery acceptable in developing nations? After all, the US benefited from it while it was growing, why should we deny the economic benefits of slavery to other countries.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#100

Post by alehul » Wed, Sep 26, 2018, 5:03 PM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #97

alehul wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the same logic, I'm aware there likely isn't a prince in Nigeria who will send me a boatload of money if I send them .1% of that money over the internet. We nonetheless, as a society, choose to shame and fight the action of the scammer, though many capable people fall for it. What I mean to say is that just because I'm taking a calculated risk does not remove the other party of moral and legal liability for their…

> In fact, the only argument I remember hearing (I think it was Marc Andreessen?) against the shaming of the scammer in the prince analogy is that they sometimes have no other option to feed their family. I doubt that justification applies to Chinese IP theft. I do not necessarily agree with this argument, but it actually translates to China's situation pretty directly - you could argue that their attitude to IP is a…

Fair point! From an ethical perspective I would still choose to shame it, but that equivalence can definitely be justified; it's no different than the Nigerian scammer but on a country-wide level. I like it.

Another question would be whether the Chinese acquiring this IP would trickle down to help those in poverty, or whether the wealth would stay consolidated at the top.