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How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

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Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#81

Post by sunstone »

chillacy wrote: post #73
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

I went to the Toyota factory in Japan and they talked about how they got started by importing Chrysler vehicles from the United States, taking them apart, and basically copying them to make the first Toyota cars. But over the years they started developing in-house knowledge, and their own innovations. Now Toyota is known for making reliable cars that are affordable. Is the world better off with Toyota making cars? I…

If Chrysler is worse off, that's its own damn fault. Anyone watching the management of American auto companies over the past 30 years can't be but gob smacked about how incompetent it has been.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#82

Post by yourbandsucks »

reaperducer wrote: post #12
diego_moita wrote: post #9

And so what??? The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK, check the history of Samuel Slater[1]. Same happened for Japan under Meiji restoration. India and Brazil do the same for pharmaceutical patents, because they're too poor to afford paying them. Stealing IP will happen, no matter what treaties and governments try to do. For poor countries it is a path they just don't have the luxury of givi…

The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?" I don't know if you're an American or not, but there's an very common expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

It's more like "192 wrongs make an international norm" than "2 wrongs make a right".

https://xkcd.com/1170/

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#83

Post by anon92612 »

It’s interesting the vast difference in reporting the media has on China’s IP issues vs India’s and even Canada’s.

I wonder if China only remade pharmaceutical IP while India remade technological, the reports would be different?

Or is it because China is a rival?

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#84

Post by lotsofpulp »

api wrote: post #69
simion314 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't the companies just not do business in China if they don't like the contract? Other countries have similar laws, like it forces companies to hire local people or spend part of the money locally. If China can afford to not respect the IP laws then there is nothing what a company can do, eventually the secrets would be reversed engineered.

They do. This is part of why we have such a large trade deficit with China. The real issue here is China's double-talk on trade. They talk about open free trade but in reality they practice intense nationalistic and protectionist trade tactics. They do everything possible to prevent foreign companies from selling anything in China, while at the same time doing everything they can to attract foreign labor outsourcing,…

Might makes right, and you can only take someone to task if you have the power to do so. The US (or at least owners of equity in the US) are too dependent on the cheap labor and lax environmental rules of China, otherwise there is no reason for the most powerful country in the world to let another country take "advantage" of them.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#85

Post by alehul »

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

By the same logic, I'm aware there likely isn't a prince in Nigeria who will send me a boatload of money if I send them .1% of that money over the internet. We nonetheless, as a society, choose to shame and fight the action of the scammer, though many capable people fall for it.

What I mean to say is that just because I'm taking a calculated risk does not remove the other party of moral and legal liability for their theft of some kind.

In fact, the only argument I remember hearing (I think it was Marc Andreessen?) against the shaming of the scammer in the prince analogy is that they sometimes have no other option to feed their family. I doubt that justification applies to Chinese IP theft.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#86

Post by anon92612 »

aurailious wrote: post #19
reaperducer wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US pried the textile and locomotives industries from the UK This is the sort of argument that an eight-year-old makes to his mother, and the mother responds, "If Jimmy jumped off a bridge, would you?" I don't know if you're an American or not, but there's an very common expression: Two wrongs don't make a right.

Isn't this "whataboutism"? You shut down a conversation by trying to deflect about how others have also done something? Like you said, two wrongs don't make a right. Just by pointing out this has happened elsewhere doesn't make the conversation about China doing it any less important or relevant. Why shut down this conversation?

Or is it perspective?

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#87

Post by ng12 »

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

Part of the problem is expansion into China is a hot take for stockholders. It's difficult to stand in front of a board and say "no, we will never expand into China".

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#89

Post by zeroname »

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

> It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in various parts of the world. If they cannot make this calculation, they should not be running a company.

There's an externality here, it's not just that one company, but all of its competitors that are losing out on these IP "appropriations". Then, let's say you're one of the companies that are able to "sell out", if you want to profit at all, you need to be the first to sell out. You can't rely on nobody selling out, therefore selling out isn't even bad management.

Re: How China Systematically Pries Technology from U.S. Companies

#90

Post by sangnoir »

natvert wrote: post #49

It's hard for me to believe that all the smart, capable company executives involved in planning and execution of operations in and around China are oblivious to IP risks. There is an obvious upside of operating in Asia, both cheap labor (though now decreasing) and strong work ethic coupled with access to a huge market. It seems to me that execs understand and take a calculated risk when they choose to do business in…

> More than anything else, the attitude displayed in this article appears to me as an attempt to defer (or pass to the public) the consequences of the above calculated choices.

Say what you will, but "privatize profits and socialize losses"[1] is winning formula, even in a country that on its face rejects socialism.

What's interesting in light of your observation is that companies didn't stay away from China due to onerous demands - in that parallel universe, the executives would be lobbying for China to open its markets. What happened in our world goes to show what they value more: keeping their IP or access to the markets/manufacturing. Now they want to have their cake and eat it.

1. corrected (had repeated 'profits') - thanks @greenleafjacob

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