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Oracle’s Java 11 trap

blog.joda.org

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Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#111

Post by VLM »

StreamBright wrote: post #81
wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

Right, what is the equivalent of the following in Go? import org.apache.hadoop.*; import org.rapidoid.net.Server; In case you are wondering people not only using languages for language features but also for the quality/quantity of libraries available in those languages. This is why is very hard to bootstrap a new language. Java has a ton of great libraries that are essential to big data and high performance backend s…

We used the same argument a decade ago with Perl, look where that got us.

Java in 2018 is Perl in 2008, roughly.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#113

Post by snuxoll »

nonconvergent wrote: post #58
dzdt wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We just made it TO Java 8.

Java 8 is EOL in January for public support/security patches. Java 7 was EOL in 2015. What have you been doing for 3 years? I could guess, because I've been at companies doing the same. Active development and support on the product, but no time for tech debt. Java 9 and up I understand people getting frustrated with a more frequent LTS release and these weird microreleases every year.

Red Hat and AdoptOpenJDK will be supporting OpenJDK 8 for quite some time yet. Oracle's JDK and JRE will stop getting public support, yes, but OpenJDK 8 will be alive and well for many years to come.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#114

Post by dig1 »

ofrzeta wrote: post #96
StreamBright wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, what is the equivalent of the following in Go? import org.apache.hadoop.*; import org.rapidoid.net.Server; In case you are wondering people not only using languages for language features but also for the quality/quantity of libraries available in those languages. This is why is very hard to bootstrap a new language. Java has a ton of great libraries that are essential to big data and high performance backend s…

import ( "net/http" "github.com/labstack/echo" ) For Hadoop I guess it depends on what you want to do. For instance there are modules for HDFS but also several module by Hortonworks: https://de.hortonworks.com/blog/go-hadoop-err-hadoop-and-go/

But you still need jre/jdk to serve HDFS ;) Also, there are tons of other missing products like ElasticSearch, Kafka, Spark...

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#115

Post by zelos »

bimbam wrote: post #80

I believe the article is mistaken. Their License says: >"Program(s)" refers to Oracle software provided by Oracle pursuant to this Agreement and any updates, error corrections, and/or Program Documentation provided by Oracle. Not programs you create using the JDK

I thought that too: this just affects companies running JVMs, not companies that ship Java software, right?

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#116

Post by filomeno »

christophilus wrote: post #40
wheresvic1 wrote: post #16

I'm not sure Java is worth the effort at this point. If I'm going to have to keep updating every 6 months, I would rather use Go, which seems to have all that Java has to offer + the backing of a huge corporation.

Yeah. I'm kinda with you. You've got .NET Core and Go as reasonable contenders for new projects, but it's hard to justify moving an existing product away from Java. Not to mention, it seems that Java's still got a huge head-start on existing libraries vs Go / .NET. Er... Well, I'm with you for a different reason than updating... I'm thinking that Oracle is just shifting the licensing ground too much for my comfort.

But why all the effort needed when you can simply use the open-source Java version called OpenJDK? It's virtually identical to Oracle's JDK, only without commercial support, and it's licensed the same way those other alternatives you're suggesting.

Besides, dotnet core would not be a better replacement: it's got a large corporation behind too, so nothing prevents them to do the same in the future.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#117

Post by carlmr »

lclarkmichalek wrote: post #69
carlmr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Java also has a multi decade history of remaining backwards compatible across major version upgrades. And Google has a history of starting and scrapping products without much attention to the remaining userbase. I'm not saying Go is one of these.

Then what are you saying?

That Go may or may not be a trustworthy foundation to build on for the future you can't say it yet, but Google isn't very trustworthy on this front, while for Java oracle has been very boring but stable.

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#118

Post by jodastephen »

dnomad wrote: post #99
jodastephen wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everybody reads warnings. Many will go to that page and just go straight to the download. In addition, the warning doesn't say "not for commercial use" - you have to click through and read a long legalese to find it. Oracle could still choose to make it clearer...

There's no "long legalese." The new license ( https://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/terms/license... ) is very clear. It states in plain English: "Further, You may not: use the Programs for any data processing or any commercial, production, or internal business purposes other than developing, testing, prototyping, and demonstrating your Application;". How is that not clear? This entire article is just pure F…

If you want to claim that 2000+ word terms are not legalese then so be it. Suffice it to say, I disagree. What is needed here is a summary in the warning box on the main page. Something like "Do not download this unless you want to pay us".

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#119

Post by djsumdog »

srgseg wrote: post #98

I notice that the OpenJDK build is only available as a .tar.gz and not as .rpm This means that to upgrade from Oracle JDK10 -> Open JDK11, you'll have to write a script yourself to modify the symlinks e.g. to redirect the existing "/etc/alternatives/java -> /usr/java/jdk-10.0.x/bin/java" to the new installation. There are 46 of these symlinks that need changing (for javac, jstack, etc etc). I hope that's the only cha…

The OpenJDK build is GPL and should find its way into official package repositories. Oracle may have stopped creating the rpms for that reason.

Most distros use the IceTea builds for OpenJDK. Hmm . IceTea3 is Java8. There's no Java9 IceTea4 build yet. I can't find any roadmap info on their site ...

Re: Oracle’s Java 11 trap

#120

Post by djsumdog »

cesarb wrote: post #60
Leace wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's good that package managers ship only openjdk. When I migrated to Linux I didn't know better but as "openjdk" was easier to install than Oracle JDK I used "openjdk". It turns out it works very well, actually I can't tell the difference.

Unfortunately, many people add a repository with Oracle JDK to their package managers and install the JDK from there, due to some perceived better compatibility and/or extra bug fixes. (And in my experience, this is true for the Java plugin; the "official" plugin seems to work better than the IcedTea plugin.)

Confluence is an example of a piece of software that wouldn't run correctly at all under OpenJDK.

Even today on the Atlasian docs, they provide a Docker image of Confluence to evaluate, but if you buy a production license, you are required to build an OracleJRE Docker container (they provide instructions) for production.

It's been years and they still can't support OpenJDK ... it makes me wonder what weird proprietary crazy reflection shit they're doing in there.

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