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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#301

Post by deadbunny »

pchristensen wrote: post #121
Angostura wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to recall from a geography A-level course about 35 years ago in the UK that historically Los Angeles' spread was something to do with the city fathers offering incentives to adjoining communities to become part of Los Angeles - something like 'call yourself Los Angeles and we'll give you access to our water or electrical grid'. Is that right? A bit hazy after all this time.

Los Angeles had the water supply from Owens Lake, which enabled it to dictate terms to a lot of surrounding land whose owners wanted to develop (e.g. the San Fernando Valley). It's a huge, fairly flat coastal basin, and although the city limits don't cover the whole area, Los Angeles itself is 500 sq mi, which is larger than Phoenix, or 50% more land than New York City. It's really, really big.

I visited LA for the first time last year, I remember descending to LAX and being absolutely blown away by the sheer scale of LA stretching for dozens of miles below. The same approach into London Heathrow/Gatwick seems positively rural in comparison.

I used to think the opening city shots in Blade Runner were an obvious exaggeration but apart from the Tyrell Corp building it looked pretty much the same.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#302

Post by [deleted] »

Freak_NL wrote: post #267
skrebbel wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it gets basically everything right. Almost everything :) It says that there needs to be a separated, protected bike lane on every road that has a maximum speed over 30 km/h. This is not true (and pretty infeasible, too). The vast majority of average boring roads in residential areas have a 50 km/h maximum speed and no separated bike lanes (and often, if the road is small/quiet enough, not a marked bike lane at all)…

> The vast majority of average boring roads in residential areas have a 50 km/h maximum speed […] Look closely though, a lot has changed in the last decade. Most of the residential streets are now 30 km/h, with only the larger arterial thoroughfares (which do have tend to have separate cycling lanes) and roads in industrial areas left at 50 km/h. > Most countryside roads have a 80 km/h maximum speed and no bike lanes…

[deleted]

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#303

Post by jvannistelrooy »

KozmoNau7 wrote: post #74
bunderbunder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

I've broken two helmets over my years of cycling, quite possibly saving me from at least one skull fracture. So a helmet is mandatory to me. However, I don't want it to be mandated by law. That has shown to keep a lot of people from cycling.

I've a funny anecdote about this:

I'm Dutch and do my daily commute on my casual bike without a helmet. In the weekends I ride my road bike and wear a helmet. I've once had an accident on my road bike and broke my helmet (along with my collar bone). A few weeks later I went out on my casual bike (not wearing a helmet) to buy a new helmet for my road bike. On my way back, holding the new helmet in my right hand, my steer got tangled up in the helmet and I fell. Undeniable conclusion: Having a helmet with you on a casual bike actually causes accidents!

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#304

Post by jvannistelrooy »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #275
nomercy400 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being in the way is also very rare. You'd be amazed how we can cycle around you without you even feeling bothered. Ringing your bell is rare and mostly used to notify other cyclists. The best way to be in traffic is to not stand out. Whether it is car, cyclist or pedestrian. Just don't bother other people.

> Ringing your bell is rare and mostly used to notify other cyclists. And tourists, who wander onto the bike lanes without realizing it. Mind you there's a lot of cramped and busy areas where it's far too easy to do so. If you visit Amsterdam, look at the ground, stay off the red pavement unless you intend to cross it, in which case you look both ways and do a firm walk across it.

Indeed, riding through city center Amsterdam without a bell is suicide. Foreign pedestrians don't really look out for cyclists when they cross a street.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#305

Post by justincormack »

gambiting wrote: post #264
joncrocks wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In most countries in Europe (certainly in the UK, and other places I have visited), pedestrians have a separate crossing phase to the rest of traffic. The US is unusual in expecting pedestrians to cross while traffic is also trying to negotiate an intersection.

In some EU countries(Poland) pedestrians have a green light to go, even though cars turning right also have a green light - cars are expected to watch out for pedestrians crossing, even when they have a green light to go. I live in UK and the part of the traffic codex that seems to be unknown to literally all British drivers is the one that says "pedestrians have priority over cars making a turn" - so if you are cros…

I think pedestrians have priority almost all the time on UK roads but drivers don't care.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#306

Post by sharpercoder »

sAbakumoff wrote: post #225
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous. well, while it's very safe to ride a bike here in Netherlands, sh*t still happens regularly and crazy drivers are there. Past year I had this accident : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUY7psClcbQ

In which the cyclist is at fault, as the minivan is on the intersection before the cyclist and thus has right of way. Right of way only counts when arriving at the same time, often neglected in analysis.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#307

Post by Plasmoid2000ad »

glenneroo wrote: post #294
watermanio wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dangerous misinformation Oh come on, making a V sign is not dangerous. Most likely, someone shouts an original insult to you.

I've been followed home and threatened in the US for giving a driver who was tailgating the middle finger. Are you saying that in the UK this would never happen? I certainly wouldn't risk provoking random strangers, especially those who are not following traffic codex.

Very unlikely. Fuels costs are way too high for anyone in the UK to consider diverting from their regular commute.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#308

Post by jvannistelrooy »

rogihee wrote: post #141
elboru wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t know that, I’ve only been to Amsterdam, what is different in other cities?

Less tourists on bikes that are the most dangerous cyclists around, every Dutch person knows :-)

I once rented a tourist bike in Amsterdam because my own bike broke down and the OV bikes were all rented out. I was surprised how often other cyclists rang the bell to me and how people were keeping me distance. That tourist bike was a big warning sign to every other cyclist.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#309

Post by mcv »

bluejekyll wrote: post #19
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous. I understand this perspective, but as a counter to this, if no one bikes in the US then this won't change. I ride all over San Francisco. In the last 18 years of me living here things have gotten better and better for the cyclist, but there are still many areas that can be improved. I encourage you to support local or…

  > For too long in the US we've designed our roads with the idea that cars have some right to the road that others do not.
This used to be the case too in Netherland. Until the 1990s, cars had right of way over bikes in most (not all) situations. A car coming from the left would have right of way over a bike coming from the right. This was only fixed in the 1990s.

Bikes have always been popular, but quite a lot of the things described in this article have been fairly recent developments.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#310

Post by mcv »

u801e wrote: post #184
neivin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. However, this isn't the case if you do your test elsewhere. SF has pretty good bike infrastructure and awareness. I just did my driving test in the city, and this was drilled into my head by my instructor.

> You would also fail your driver's test in SF if you don't check for bikers when making a right turn. Infrastructure shouldn't be designed in a way to cause these types of turning conflicts. The general rule of the road is that vehicles on the right make right turns. Vehicles on the left make left turns, and vehicles in the middle proceed straight through the intersection. Turning conflicts, like what you're describ…

This works only on roads where cars and bikes go the same speed. There are many roads where cars want to go faster than that.
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