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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#291

Post by masklinn »

2T1Qka0rEiPr wrote: post #288

I love this, but I wonder if cycling in The Netherlands is similar to my experience in Germany. I would classify myself as a "wielrenner". In Berlin for example, whilst the cycling infrastructure is also generally good as a cyclist you're practically forced to use these really thin cycle paths full of "fietser"s (to continue the Dutch terminology). That, in combination with generally very bumpy paths, can make gettin…

> I love this, but I wonder if cycling in The Netherlands is similar to my experience in Germany.

It's likely a better experience, and at any rate it's significantly safer: https://twitter.com/greenpeace_de/status/1034350589696716800

(I don't speak german but using google translate it looks like yellow is accident risk, light green is proportion of cyclists and dark green is cycling-related spending)

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#292

Post by masklinn »

kazen44 wrote: post #68
cr1895 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s something to be said about which parties favor encouraging or discouraging car use in cities or restrictions of motorized vehicles on the cycle paths (which the interview also did not really cover). But you’re right...no one is discouraging biking.

Also, road design in the netherlands is specifically designed to seperate cars and bikes as much as possible. ( a crash between bikes is far less dangerous compared to a car-bike crash). If that is not possible, they design roads in a way which forces people to slow down to "safe" speeds. (50km/h or lower usually).

That is mentioned in the article, full separation is required on any road where the speed limit exceeds 30km/h (~20mph).

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#293

Post by s_dev »

PascLeRasc wrote: post #88
phil248 wrote: post #17

I was amazed at how mellow everyone in Amsterdam seemed while riding their bikes. In US cities, most cyclist act like they're in a race. They must run every stop sign, charge down every hill, graze every pedestrian... in downtown Amsterdam most people were going at a leisurely pace and if you get in their way, they just ding a little bell at you.

That's how you have to ride to survive in car-centric America. You need to assume every car at an intersection has an incentive to hit you and run lights/stop signs to get distance and maintain speed. I'm a pretty normal cyclist most of the time but after several "Pittsburgh left" collisions at intersections I'm fighting for my life.

It's because the traffic isn't segregated.

The faster you cycle on a road the safer you feel because you're more in keeping of the pace of the traffic.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#294

Post by glenneroo »

watermanio wrote: post #289
teddyh wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don’t spread dangerous misinformation, even as a joke. Note to non-UK-residents: The described gesture is, in fact, a very rude insulting gesture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign#As_an_insult

> dangerous misinformation Oh come on, making a V sign is not dangerous. Most likely, someone shouts an original insult to you.

I've been followed home and threatened in the US for giving a driver who was tailgating the middle finger. Are you saying that in the UK this would never happen? I certainly wouldn't risk provoking random strangers, especially those who are not following traffic codex.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#295

Post by distances »

joncrocks wrote: post #261
SECProto wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that measure, we shouldn't have crosswalks at intersections, and walkers should walk into the street, past the right turn lane, to avoid turning conflict.

In most countries in Europe (certainly in the UK, and other places I have visited), pedestrians have a separate crossing phase to the rest of traffic. The US is unusual in expecting pedestrians to cross while traffic is also trying to negotiate an intersection.

> In most countries in Europe (certainly in the UK, and other places I have visited), pedestrians have a separate crossing phase to the rest of traffic.

I don't have numbers but I think this is the other way around: UK is the exception while most of Europe have pedestrians cross with turning traffic.

As a pedestrian I prefer the "normal" way of sharing the crossing with turning cars. In UK you'll have to wait for a way too long time for the pedestrian green light, and as a result (?) people cross pretty regularly against the red light. This is the case for London at least -- could also be that people are just more impatient in such a crowded metropolis.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#296

Post by Symbiote »

gowld wrote: post #63
linguistbreaker wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the dynamic is skewed in the US because so few motorists are cyclists. Just perspective.

There is no natural origin to be skewed from. It's relative. both statements are equally correct, and leave out the relative context.

The natural origin is a pedestrian, which is much, much more common in the Netherlands than most of the USA.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#297

Post by gpvos »

gowld wrote: post #63
linguistbreaker wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would say the dynamic is skewed in the US because so few motorists are cyclists. Just perspective.

There is no natural origin to be skewed from. It's relative. both statements are equally correct, and leave out the relative context.

The natural origin should be walking (except for motorways, some tunnels, etc., and I guess in most cases also outside city/village limits). But I read that in US suburbs, many streets are not even suitable for that, which boggles my mind.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#298

Post by avocad »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #129
the-dude wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cyclist vs motorist dynamic in NL is skewed because practically all motorists are cyclists too.

I am not sure that's true. I (a Dutchman) know plenty of motorists who won't touch a bicycle.

No, but most of them used to ride a bicycle at some point in their lives, and know of the dangers that cars pose to them. Also Dutchman here.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#299

Post by Symbiote »

kalleboo wrote: post #203
Symbiote wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would have loved that kind of independence at age 12, but with the fear of traffic, paedophiles, kidnappers and whatever, I wasn't even allowed to walk to the end of the road unsupervised.

When and where was this? Just curious. In the early 90's in the US at age 8-9 I was allowed to ride all around the neighborhood and to school, as long as I was with a friend and not alone. We moved to Europe in 1995 and by then most people had stopped trick-or-treating in the neighborhood due to the TV news scares of razor blades in apples and whatnot, it seemed like the public trust had hit rock bottom.

UK, 1998.

My parents were very unusual, to the point that my friends' parents would lie to them to cover for me, but the practicalities meant I still couldn't do much of what they did. I didn't own a useful bike, didn't have money for the bus etc.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#300

Post by gpvos »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #243
psergeant wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing though is that our geography works well with biking Right, 100%. I wonder if the cheap electric-assist bikes will make more countries / cities essentially “flat”

Electric assist bicycles are basically a smaller / lightweight alternative to scooters; I don't see (but I could be wrong) how e-bikes would be more prevalent if scooters already aren't.

Scooters have become quite a bit more prevalent in recent years. Actually there was a link to this article at the bottom of TFA: https://www.vox.com/2018/8/27/17676670/electric-scooter-rent... .

Edit: Huh, I hadn't read the article yet; it appears not to be about moped-/motorcycle-like scooters as I expected (because there has been an increase in such scooters in the Netherlands in the last five to ten years or so), but about electrified kick scooters. (Dutch uses different words for each (scooter and step), so I had no idea about the double meaning.)

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