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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#241

Post by yread »

wjnc wrote: post #4

A main one not pointed out: cars are always (extreme negligence would be the tipping point) liable for crashes with cyclists and pedestrians. That's quite supportive for keeping an eye out for possible danger. To support that liability insurance is obligatory for motorists. The one on left vs. right really is not even close to an issue. I would guess most MPs of most parties cycle to work. There is literally not a (n…

>I would guess most MPs of most parties cycle to work

Can confirm. Colleague of mine met the Dutch PM (Rutte) cycling to work the other day

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#242

Post by nomercy400 »

phil248 wrote: post #17

I was amazed at how mellow everyone in Amsterdam seemed while riding their bikes. In US cities, most cyclist act like they're in a race. They must run every stop sign, charge down every hill, graze every pedestrian... in downtown Amsterdam most people were going at a leisurely pace and if you get in their way, they just ding a little bell at you.

Being in the way is also very rare. You'd be amazed how we can cycle around you without you even feeling bothered. Ringing your bell is rare and mostly used to notify other cyclists.

The best way to be in traffic is to not stand out. Whether it is car, cyclist or pedestrian. Just don't bother other people.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#243

Post by Cthulhu_ »

psergeant wrote: post #240
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> One thing though is that our geography works well with biking Right, 100%. I wonder if the cheap electric-assist bikes will make more countries / cities essentially “flat”

Electric assist bicycles are basically a smaller / lightweight alternative to scooters; I don't see (but I could be wrong) how e-bikes would be more prevalent if scooters already aren't.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#244

Post by lenlorijn »

lucb1e wrote: post #142

> Dutch design manual classifies roads depending on the speed of the cars traveling in them. If there’s any major difference in speed, then full separation is required > What is the speed threshold? > Anything where cars are traveling faster than 30 kph. So, what’s that, 19 mph? As a Dutchman, this is so obviously wrong that it makes me doubt everything factual in the book they wrote. 50 roads without physical separa…

That's because they're talking about a "Dutch design manual". Not a law. So obviously local governments won't implement this if it is prohibitively expensive. It's just a suggestion.

'inch-thick top coat', they're talking about a top coat, not just the paint. To make sure the paint doesn't wear after a couple of months the entire top part of the cycling path is red asphalt. Though I doubt it is 2,6cm everywhere as it differs per municipality. But its definitely thicker than a coat of paint most of the time.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#245

Post by lagadu »

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #160
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve stopped peaking over my shoulders ever since I’ve gotten a car with a bunch of sensors and cameras. Now it seems like it is more dangerous to take the time to look back and instead just rely on the fairly reliable sensor indicator in the side review mirrors. It’s not even like you can do both, unfortunately, since you either look here or there. I wonder how much driving will change with technology before we get…

I’ve stopped peaking over my shoulders ever since I’ve gotten a car with a bunch of sensors and cameras. When I ride in newer cars, I'm always surprised at how poor the outward visibility is. Front pillars have gotten enormous in order to house airbags, and the rear pillars seem to always be absurdly think with tiny, useless corner windows (for crush/rollover strength?). It's no wonder that you're more dependent on t…

> (for crush/rollover strength?)

That's correct: a car's roof (or rather the pillars that hold it) has to be strong enough to not get crushed in case the car gets flipped. That's why pillars are so thick nowadays.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#246

Post by skrebbel »

Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> it gets basically everything right.

Almost everything :) It says that there needs to be a separated, protected bike lane on every road that has a maximum speed over 30 km/h. This is not true (and pretty infeasible, too). The vast majority of average boring roads in residential areas have a 50 km/h maximum speed and no separated bike lanes (and often, if the road is small/quiet enough, not a marked bike lane at all). Most countryside roads have a 80 km/h maximum speed and no bike lanes.

I bet some details were left out that accidentally made it incorrect. I can imagine that there's some law/guideline going on that if a road is particularly busy, then it needs to be either max 30 kph or have separated bike lanes. But most suburban roads or countryside aren't particularly busy.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#247

Post by erikb »

GijsjanB wrote: post #137
erikb wrote: post #95

By having flat roads and the fact that bikes are cheaper than cars? I honestly don't think one needs to do much to create a biking culture. Maybe some investment and biking lanes separated from roads are needed.

Adding bike lanes to existing infrastructure may not be as simple as it seams. Then there's culture. Kids in The Netherlands learn to ride bicycles when really small. My son is 5, cycling to and from school. My daughter is 2 years old, cycling around the house. That's important for a life long appreciation of the clean, cheap and healthy bike.

Yes and so do all kids in Germany, France, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, China, etc.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#248

Post by Cthulhu_ »

ptaipale wrote: post #39
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

Another thing is that Netherlands (most of it) is flat. Much nicer to ride bike on even ground than where there are even small hills.

Down south (Limburg etc) is a lot more hilly (like a LOT); how is the cycling culture there? I've only been there on vacation once :p.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#249

Post by kqr »

twoWhlsGud wrote: post #206
limaoscarjuliet wrote: post #152

Easy - they have no hills.

Hills end. Wind doesn't. (Source - memories of biking upwind against the air coming off the North Sea.) I'll take Seattle hills over Dutch headwinds any day...

Also once you crest the hill, the energy you spent climbing it is recovered on the downslope.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#250

Post by Cthulhu_ »

hfdgiutdryg wrote: post #160
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve stopped peaking over my shoulders ever since I’ve gotten a car with a bunch of sensors and cameras. Now it seems like it is more dangerous to take the time to look back and instead just rely on the fairly reliable sensor indicator in the side review mirrors. It’s not even like you can do both, unfortunately, since you either look here or there. I wonder how much driving will change with technology before we get…

I’ve stopped peaking over my shoulders ever since I’ve gotten a car with a bunch of sensors and cameras. When I ride in newer cars, I'm always surprised at how poor the outward visibility is. Front pillars have gotten enormous in order to house airbags, and the rear pillars seem to always be absurdly think with tiny, useless corner windows (for crush/rollover strength?). It's no wonder that you're more dependent on t…

Yeah that's a bit shit nowadays; I've almost hit a cyclist at a roundabout the other day because he was behind one of the pillars, staying behind there thanks to the combination of his and my speeds. Always check twice.
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