National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions • Hacker News Board

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#381

Post by jakelazaroff » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 6:29 PM UTC

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #237

ZainRiz wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except they're not really "bad actors" Most people in prison today are there because of "drug offenses" which usually means they got caught doing drugs themselves (not dealing drugs or being involved in drug induced crimes).

This is a REALLY common misconception. Including "drug offenses" the U.S. incarceration rate is 693 per 100,000. Excluding "drug offenses" the U.S. incarceration rate is still 625 per 100,000. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/releasing-drug-offender... I agree with you that we should get the drug offenders out. But the characterizations that "most people are in prison for drug offenses" should be updated.

This is linked elsewhere in the thread (as well as that FiveThirtyEight article), but it bears repeating here: as far as the federal incarceration rate goes, the number is actually 46% [1]. Which isn't a majority, but it's damn close — and way too high.

(It should go without saying that these are all simplistic lenses on a very complex, multifaceted problem, and in reality many parts of the justice system need reform.)

[1] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_offen...

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#382

Post by erikpukinskis » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 6:44 PM UTC

effingwewt wrote: post #358

jacobush wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it is, or interns would be paid in full.

As they should be. Interns are regularly given work that should be given to paid employees and many businesses now see internships as free labor. How many fields of employment would you work for free just for experience? And then to still be paid as a newly graduated hire because 'internship isnt a real job or experience'. Getting over on someone seems more and more prevalent these days. I swear businesses weren't as…

You’re right interns are often given work that should be paid.

But not all of it need be paid. If I take an intern along to a job that I could’ve done in the same time alone, but I let the intern do the work and supervise them on how to do it, that needn’t be paid because the intern is not providing value, they are just getting training.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#383

Post by candiodari » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

distances wrote: post #350

meowface wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is if this were regulated or changed in some way, it would take only one or two instances of an ex-convict firefighter harming or killing someone before a very high number of people start demanding a return to a zero-tolerance convict hiring policy. It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become…

> It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become a PR nightmare and that they'll be torn to shreds for permitting the hire. Many (most?) western countries do not publish convict names unless it's very serious, such as murder. There's no reason a typical employer, let alone the public, should know you served…

Such as ? Employers demanding a paper from the police listing all your convictions is everywhere in Western Europe. Even a traffic-related conviction can be a problem. This is also something that comes up when talking to homeless in the Netherlands. Tldr: conviction for something done on the job (can be traffic accident on the way home) -> fired and significant money -> no new job because "strafblad" -> poverty -> homeless

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#384

Post by meowface » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 8:28 PM UTC

distances wrote: post #350

meowface wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is if this were regulated or changed in some way, it would take only one or two instances of an ex-convict firefighter harming or killing someone before a very high number of people start demanding a return to a zero-tolerance convict hiring policy. It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become…

> It's often a CYA and public perception issue: org X receives application from convict, considers fallout if convict does something bad, realizes it'll become a PR nightmare and that they'll be torn to shreds for permitting the hire. Many (most?) western countries do not publish convict names unless it's very serious, such as murder. There's no reason a typical employer, let alone the public, should know you served…

In the US, most (all?) convictions are public record, and the ones that aren't public record can still be found by employers who retain background check companies.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#385

Post by jaccarmac » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #365

jaccarmac wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL but the wording seems pretty straightforward. I feel relatively confident that laws outlawing prison slavery would be challenged by for-profit prisons instantly and easily be declared unconstitutional.

> IANAL but the wording seems pretty straightforward. I feel relatively confident that laws outlawing prison slavery would be challenged by for-profit prisons instantly and easily be declared unconstitutional. It'd be pretty hard to extract from the 13th amendment a constitutional right to put prisoners to unpaid work. Furthermore, it's a myth that only for-profit prisons that profit from it - state-owned prisons als…

> It'd be pretty hard to extract from the 13th amendment a constitutional right to put prisoners to unpaid work.

Fair, I had forgotten the "except... shall exist wording"

> state-owned prisons also profit off the system to the same extent

Also fair, but I'd expect the private prisons to be the ones to sue states.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#386

Post by jaccarmac » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #327

jaccarmac wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author of the parent comment seems not to understand recidivism in the United States if they were ever in prison at all. The Nordic example is leagues more potent than an anonymous anecdote.

Leave it to HN to ignore someone with far more experience/knowledge than them and counter with “I read X somewhere, so you’re wrong.”

Well, I'd like to remain anonymous for obvious reasons and will provide no proof of this assertion, but I'm actually that commenter's mother and they never went to jail.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#387

Post by chimeracoder » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 11:08 PM UTC

jaccarmac wrote: post #385

chimeracoder wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IANAL but the wording seems pretty straightforward. I feel relatively confident that laws outlawing prison slavery would be challenged by for-profit prisons instantly and easily be declared unconstitutional. It'd be pretty hard to extract from the 13th amendment a constitutional right to put prisoners to unpaid work. Furthermore, it's a myth that only for-profit prisons that profit from it - state-owned prisons als…

> It'd be pretty hard to extract from the 13th amendment a constitutional right to put prisoners to unpaid work. Fair, I had forgotten the "except... shall exist wording" > state-owned prisons also profit off the system to the same extent Also fair, but I'd expect the private prisons to be the ones to sue states.

> Also fair, but I'd expect the private prisons to be the ones to sue states.

Maybe, but at the moment the LEO/correctional officer unions are the ones actively lobbying to prevent laws like these from passing in the first place.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#388

Post by Retra » Wed, Aug 22, 2018, 11:21 PM UTC

jacobush wrote: post #348

Retra wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Experience" isn't really a form of payment anyhow.

But it is, or interns would be paid in full.

Slaves didn't get paid either, that doesn't mean the work they did was worth the experience they gained. Don't try to extract morality from the status quo. That literally sets your goal to "nowhere."

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#389

Post by Friedduck » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 12:44 AM UTC

Has everyone forgotten that these people are all convicted of a crime and serving their sentences?

For all the issues that exist (gouging for common services, violence, the judicial process, etc.) complaining about the terms of their punishment is absurd.

To be sure there should be rehabilitation, and a component of that is incentives. There should be no expectation, though, that those incentives should correlate to what they may receive in the free market.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#390

Post by garfieldnate » Thu, Aug 23, 2018, 3:19 PM UTC

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #46

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

s/employed/enslaved/g One thing we can do right now is start to use the correct language. Involuntary labor is not employment and we shouldn't call it such. There is even a market where you can buy their products. https://unicor.gov/index.aspx You can even outsource work to prison slaves. https://vimeo.com/125010485 There are even private companies that have prison slaves work for them and keep the profits. http://vl…

It's interesting to note that the Geneva convention does not allow this treatment in the case of POWs. Wikipedia says German POWs in the US during WWII were required to be paid military wages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_prisoners_of_war_in_the...