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National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

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Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#351

Post by jacobush »

rule_follower wrote: post #344
acomar wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a prison abolitionist. Your reply could not possibly fall on ears that care less about your point.

You were the one who mentioned financial incentives/conflicts vis-a-vis private prisons.

Upvoted that one though - this begs the question:

should you construct an argument only by its premise, or should you try to reach the person? I think [s]he assumed that you are not a prison abolitionist and tried to find an argument that might sway you.

Is it better or worse to argue like that?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#352

Post by jobigoud »

mikeash wrote: post #320
nickpinkston wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However, as someone whose Dad is in prison, a lot of these guys really do want to get out there and do something useful and want this experience. Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this. We can talk about the long-term reforms of prison, but ther…

I don’t think people are arguing that prisoners shouldn’t be allowed to work. They’re arguing that prisoners shouldn’t be forced.

He is saying they are not forced, that it's more complicated than that. They want to do it, but aren't compensated appropriately.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#353

Post by liaukovv »

inetknght wrote: post #318
packet_nerd wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are prisoners forced to work? What happens if they physically refuse? End up having to serve more time?

Well if you "volunteer" to work you can get less time. So yes, if you physically refuse then you serve more time.

"Not giving something"(term reduction in this case) and "taking something away" are very-very different things. You would have to be incredibly entitled to confuse them.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#354

Post by subway »

liaukovv wrote: post #353
inetknght wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if you "volunteer" to work you can get less time. So yes, if you physically refuse then you serve more time.

"Not giving something"(term reduction in this case) and "taking something away" are very-very different things. You would have to be incredibly entitled to confuse them.

You would have to be incredibly naive to believe this statement stands on its own, without evaluating implementation details and expectations of the parties involved.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#355

Post by [deleted] »

nickpinkston wrote: post #296
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #10

A relevant snippet: “California inmates were sent off to fight what has become the largest wildfire in the state’s history for just $1 an hour. These firefighters, who volunteered for a vocational training program offered by the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation, are often disqualified from the work after release because a required credential is denied to anyone with a criminal record. Hundreds…

However, as someone whose Dad is in prison, a lot of these guys really do want to get out there and do something useful and want this experience. Many times the people complaining are privileged elites who are inferring what these populations want, but I would caution them to not make assumptions and do their research. It is not unambiguously bad to do this. We can talk about the long-term reforms of prison, but ther…

[deleted]

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#356

Post by ada1981 »

pmoriarty wrote: post #297
ada1981 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like thi…

"It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence" That's one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is for every day you don't work you have to spend a day in jail. That sound more like coercion than volunteering to me.

Maybe.

But you’ve already got your sentence from a judge after being convinced of a crime.

What would you prefer?

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#357

Post by ada1981 »

danShumway wrote: post #298
ada1981 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s worth noting that this is a voulenteer program and that for every day you work you get 1 day off your sentence. So you can effectively halve your time in prison. This actually seems like a pretty good deal, what would you pay to get a day off your sentence? That said, I think the Prision system is fucked, has horrible incentives, private companies abuse bought prison labor, etc. etc. But I actually felt like thi…

My gut reaction to this is pretty negative. It feels instinctively wrong to tie prison time to pay - it should be tied to rehabilitation. And asking someone to risk their lives so they can gamble on reduced prison time just seems... I dunno, isn't that the thing that's usually done by villains in the story books? I mean, maybe I'm naive about it, but I have a fairly strong cultural background telling me that using pe…

I’m all for minimum wage laws to apply to prisoners.

I’m also guessing the reason the “opportunity” exists is in part because those laws don’t apply and you can get firefighters for $1/hour.

Presumably they don’t offer the option to reduce sentences from other prison jobs like laundry or cooking, and these firefighter jobs are seen as providing a form of service to the greater community, and at a risk.

Also, keep in mind that much of our economic system and policy is predicated on the idea of using people’s desperstion to get them to do horrible jobs.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#358

Post by effingwewt »

jacobush wrote: post #348
Retra wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Experience" isn't really a form of payment anyhow.

But it is, or interns would be paid in full.

As they should be. Interns are regularly given work that should be given to paid employees and many businesses now see internships as free labor. How many fields of employment would you work for free just for experience? And then to still be paid as a newly graduated hire because 'internship isnt a real job or experience'.

Getting over on someone seems more and more prevalent these days. I swear businesses weren't as bad about these things in the 80's and 90's,maybe it's rose-colored glasses and all that jazz.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#359

Post by lordgrenville »

ada1981 wrote: post #357
danShumway wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gut reaction to this is pretty negative. It feels instinctively wrong to tie prison time to pay - it should be tied to rehabilitation. And asking someone to risk their lives so they can gamble on reduced prison time just seems... I dunno, isn't that the thing that's usually done by villains in the story books? I mean, maybe I'm naive about it, but I have a fairly strong cultural background telling me that using pe…

I’m all for minimum wage laws to apply to prisoners. I’m also guessing the reason the “opportunity” exists is in part because those laws don’t apply and you can get firefighters for $1/hour. Presumably they don’t offer the option to reduce sentences from other prison jobs like laundry or cooking, and these firefighter jobs are seen as providing a form of service to the greater community, and at a risk. Also, keep in…

Thinking out loud here - I don't agree with this, and I'm trying to get to why. I think that prison doesn't really have much of a redemptive or rehabilitative effect - quite the opposite, sometimes. So to me allowing people to work their sentences off seems fine. And even the fact that they aren't being paid doesn't necessarily seem unjust. They have a debt to society, but paying that with labour seems far better than the alternative of them sitting around doing nothing/interacting with more hardened criminals.

As others have said, though, it definitely is unjust that they face discrimination when attempting to do the same work as civilians.

Re: National prison strike launches over underpaid labor and prison conditions

#360

Post by vageli »

uxp100 wrote: post #117
vageli wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One is familial, the other is a business relationship.

So your definition of labor refers only to, for lack of a better term, "work" done in a business relationship? Then I don't think it really applies to this situation, since just as familial relations are superseding "business" relations in your example, certainly the prison relations change the nature of the business relations drastically. But I think this is certainly labor, but the distinction between labor and cho…

I think it all comes down to how the words are typically used in everyday speech. Labor is typically associated with economic gain (or general economic activity) (or pregnancy) while chores generally aren't. I know I often hear people use the word chore when talking about errands or tasks they must perform for which they won't be compensated directly by another party (like taking out the trash as a chore).

I think we started off on the wrong foot with the comparison. Even government recognizes some difference between chores and labor, as childhood labor is illegal but it's not illegal to have your kids mow the law (afaik).

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